You Can't Prevent "Savescumming" in Stealth Games, and Nor Should You

marbleman on 4/8/2023 at 11:07

I've made a video on "savescumming" in stealth games. Since it's not strictly Thief-related, I'm posting it here.

[video=youtube_share;U-OAXHwnCm0]https://youtu.be/U-OAXHwnCm0[/video]

Hope you enjoy. :D

henke on 4/8/2023 at 12:38

I'm not a ghoster, but I do feel like quicksave encourages more experimentation, which is especially appreciated when a game's systems are a bit vague. In Amnesia The Bunker I often wished it was an option because for all its immsim pretentions the systems were very unpredictable. That said, quicksave would've also sapped most of the horror right out of it, so I get why they didn't include it.

Jason Moyer on 4/8/2023 at 16:11

I'm fan of all games having quicksave/quickload but also having the option to disable it. Like, in Thief it would be cool to have a toggle that only let you save inbetween missions, but sometimes I'd also want to savescum to play around with things.

While I would probably implement it a little differently, I kinda like how Deathloop handles saving. It saves inbetween missions, but in-mission it rewinds when you hit a fail state (i.e. dying). I'd lose the lives system (well, and add multiple save slots, that's something I hate about Deathloop) but inbetween missions saves + rewind/reload on a fail state would be kind of awesome in something like Thief. It would encourage you not to immediately reload when you fuck up which opens up fun emergent gameplay possibilities you might not otherwise experience.

heywood on 4/8/2023 at 20:00

I expect imm sims to save anywhere (or very nearly so) and I can't imagine it otherwise, because who doesn't want to try out different things?

I guess a linear sneaker could have checkpoint auto-saves. I mean something designed linearly like HL2, but darker and shadowy with stealth gameplay. I'm not sure I'd want to play it though.

Thirith on 4/8/2023 at 21:04

I remember the first Aliens vs Predator having a set number of saves per map based on your difficulty level. At least as an option, I think there's something to be said for this too, so you can save but you don't resort to save scumming.

demagogue on 4/8/2023 at 23:13

I've never really had an issue with this. My basic rule with Thief FMs is that I'll quick save regularly but I accept any consequences and basically I don't reload unless I'm killed. I can get into some games that have save points if the game is designed for that. I was just playing VVVVVV, it does, and I felt it was right to. But it's a platformer. Having save points is gamey, which is fine if you're playing an arcade-like game. But I doesn't feel right for an imm sim type of game.

I guess it comes down to my first point. To the extent you game the save system to get through hard parts, that's the decision of the player. If they want to ironman it, that's a thing the player can decide for themselves as well. It's not for the UI or game systems to decide a thing like that. You play it in the style you want, and you give yourself your own challenges if they're beyond the environment or plot per se. Something like that is I guess the reasoning behind wanting free-saving for games like that.

Thirith on 5/8/2023 at 08:40

I agree that it's the decision of the player, but systems do shape player behaviour. You can put that down to lacking self-control, but it's a fact that most people will get into the habit of making use of the systems at their disposal. I'm not for removing free-save options, but I can see the argument for giving more options - even if they're options that restrict the player in certain ways.

henke on 5/8/2023 at 11:23

Another plus-point for quicksaves is that they smooth over rough edges of a game's design. I'm playing some Thief 2 FMs right now and there are certain points where you have to jump over a pit and grab then mantle onto the ledge on the other side. And Thief's mantling system is kinda wonky. Sometimes it just won't mantle when it looks like it should mantle, which occasionally means you plummet to your death. Being able to quickload to just before you did the jump is a blessing. If you'd have to restart the level each time this happened I think we'd all be far less forgiving of Thief's quirks.

heywood on 5/8/2023 at 19:57

I like Thirith's idea for games that are chunked up into missions or levels. Let's acknowledge that players are using and will always use strategic saves to overcome difficulty, and treat it like another game system to be balanced. Make the number of saves per mission a variable based on difficulty setting, provide an override for unlimited saves, use no-save zones sparingly. Even playing an imm sim, I wouldn't mind having that constraint on my first play-through. But on subsequent plays I really want unlimited saves, not just for experimentation, but to save a moment so that I can revisit it. I have Deus Ex saves from 2001 that I jumped back into as recently as a couple years ago. It was like watching old home movies.

Nameless Voice on 5/8/2023 at 20:12

Quote Posted by henke

Another plus-point for quicksaves is that they smooth over rough edges of a game's design.

Conversely, not allowing quicksaves means that the developers need to be really on-point with how they set up the save points, because if they mess it up, it can make the game frustrating.

But the talk of how to do non-free saves isn't really the point of Marbleman's video. He's pointing out that not giving the option for free saves effectively invalidates his preferred playstyle of ghosting, and that will happen for pretty much any system of limited saves.