Zygoptera on 16/7/2006 at 10:48
Quote Posted by Aircraftkiller
About the arbitrary countries, Palestine definitely seems as if it was never a nation at all.
I'm kind of left here thinking "wtf" over how these people are being duped into thinking they were ever a national entity...
The original UN plan for British Palestine called for two separate countries, an Israel and a 'Palestine', unfortunately the Palestinians got, and are still getting, royally fucked over both by the Israelis and to a lesser extent by their fellow arabs. But that's probably where they got the idea from.
In any case the arguement that 'Palestine' was never a sovereign nation is fatuous. Neither was the US prior to 1776.
tungsten on 16/7/2006 at 13:55
Quote Posted by Aircraftkiller
So, for example, because Mexico lost land to the US - our STD pal wouldn't have any issues with a Mexican invasion to regain lost territory?
Please learn to read Stronzo correctly. He didn't say he agrees with Iraq invading Kuwait. All he said was that it is highly disputable, and that Iraq was much closer to having a right to fight their fight than Israel has to theirs, making the invasion in Kuwait a "lesser" reason for the US to invade in the aggressor-country.
You can't justify just any invasion with former borderlines, but there are some borders which have been agreed, and if you cross those, that's more clearly an aggression than if you cross a border that never has been accepted.
I somehow hoped that China and the US make a deal, that they don't veto the UN condemnation of N-Korea and Israel. But the Chinese already reasonably gave in, without getting a deal.
After all it's just the UN security council declaring something is bad, and not some military action.
Maybe the US could win over the world if they invaded in Israel to topple the governement and to bring peace to the region. The would either win over the 4/5ths of the world that hate them (by managing to force some peace there), or they would mess it up (like so often) and finally get 5-US/5th of the world to hate them.
Printer's Devil on 16/7/2006 at 16:53
Quote Posted by tungsten
Maybe the US could win over the world if they invaded in Israel to topple the governement and to bring peace to the region. The would either win over the 4/5ths of the world that hate them (by managing to force some peace there), or they would mess it up (like so often) and finally get 5-US/5th of the world to hate them.
Okay, let's get this straight:
A) 4/5ths of the world hates the United States (I'll rely on your scientific survey).
B) Said 4/5ths hate America because it invades or manipulates "sovereign" nations.
C) America will win everyone over by invading Israel (a functioning multi-party democracy with an independent judiciary and a free press) and deciding who gets what
after the dust/blood settles. Or maybe not.
Jason Moyer on 17/7/2006 at 01:29
Quote Posted by Aircraftkiller
I'm kind of left here thinking "wtf" over how these people are being duped into thinking they were ever a national entity...
The same way most people are duped...by their local media system and leadership. I find it odd that the "Palestinians" who actually lived in the area now claimed by Israel prior to the Zionist movement were mostly peacefully assimilated into mainstream Israeli culture, while a bunch of migrant Egyptians, Syrians, and Jordanians who were dumped in Israel's lap in order to cause trouble are fighting to recover land that was never theirs...
Aerothorn on 17/7/2006 at 01:39
Oh, you guys are nitpicking.
Regardless of any mistakes or controversial statements StD made, his fundamental point remains correct - that invading another country in response to a few people blowing up a couple hummers and shooting missiles at a few towns is way overcool. Does Israel have a right to self-defense? Yes. Does Israel have a right to specifically target civilians? I don't think so. Does Israel have a right to specifically target civilians in other countries? Definitly not.
I'm not legal expert, but I can't imagine this isn't a violation of numerous international laws. As noted by happy linked journal entry above, this isn't "Israel carefully targeting Hezbollah military warehouses" - this is "Israel flying into Lebanon and bombing anything that moves and some things that don't".
aguywhoplaysthief on 17/7/2006 at 02:18
Here's the thing: Hezbollah has attacked Israel. Israel is taking actions to destroy Hezbollah, and when they start to get their ass kicked, they are going to declare a cease-fire, and the international community will pressure Israel to stop it's assault, and if it does, Hezbollah will (again) just use the time to build up again for another attack in the future.
That's what these people have been doing for decades - using cease-fires and the peace process and manipulating the international community to give them time to regain strength for indefinite violence.
Europe, Russia, China, and the U.S. are pawns in this game run by a few dipshits with tablecloth-hats and AK-47s who enjoy the power and stature they gain by their manipulation of the local population.
TheGreatGodPan on 17/7/2006 at 04:56
Retaliation for an attack (even by non-state actors) seems a hell of a lot more justifiable to me than trying to fix borders you don't like (although as I've mentioned here before, I'm pretty much always in favor of secession). Everybody is living on land somebody's great-great-[etc]-grandparents got by killing someone else and taking it. There are no "legitimate" states or countries, just ones that exist and non-states.
Jason Moyer on 17/7/2006 at 13:19
Quote Posted by Deep Qantas
In a nutshell:
If USA and Israel don't recognize the rights of Palestine people, why should the Palestinian government recognize the rights of Israel?
Because Israel has the means to annihilate them. Unfortunately for some reason "Palestinians" have garnered enough sympathy is Israel by this point that no one would approve of bombing them back to the countries they actually originated from.
Jason Moyer on 17/7/2006 at 13:28
Quote Posted by Aerothorn
Does Israel have a right to self-defense? Yes. Does Israel have a right to specifically target civilians? I don't think so. Does Israel have a right to specifically target civilians
in other countries? Definitly not.
Israel isn't targeting civilians. They're targeting an enemy who uses civilians as human shields, and who uses civilian infrastructure to perform military operations.
Rogue Keeper on 17/7/2006 at 13:42
And so it targets civilians.
