icemann on 19/8/2015 at 02:45
Quote Posted by bassoferrol
The average user should be able to avoid installing any update.
Seconded. Not very democratic otherwise.
I'm against any cases where previously the user had the choice between downloading/installing something and then later that choice is taken away.
I've always seen it as one of the great things about PCs over consoles. You make the system you want, and set it up the way you want. Not the way the big companies want you to. Take that choice away and we might as well all switch to XBox's or playstations, where you can't even play games/applications unless you've applied the latest update.
Thirith on 19/8/2015 at 06:27
Quote Posted by doctorfrog
Once W7 is no longer attractive I'm probably going to end up dual-booting Windows and Linux to appease both the video game side of me, and the apparently outdated part of me that still thinks of it as a Personal Computer, not "Tightly Controlled Storefront."
The thing is, I don't think of my computer as a tightly controlled storefront. If that is what my machine is, it's doing a very poor job of it, because I'm pretty much doing exactly the things on it that I did on my very first computer (plus online stuff - our first couple of PCs at home were before the internet) and I've yet to buy anything on the Windows Store or whatever it's called. It's quite possible that Windows is keeping a large number of people from doing what they want with their PCs for reasons of control and commerce, but most of the comments I read to that extent aren't about what Microsoft actually does but what it could conceivably do, with a large helping of "Just you wait and see...". I've been waiting, but I haven't seen much as yet.
WingedKagouti on 19/8/2015 at 11:21
I'll just take from this thread that there are several people here who have never had any kind of network security, help desk or support job.
It's almost guaranteed that every single security update has a piece of malware exploiting it, and often the malware getting discovered will be what exposes the need for an update. Most malware today has at least one of three functions: Pushing unwanted ads*, extorting money from the user or setting up the computer to be part of a botnet. Sure, if you run an adblocker, uninstall Flash & Java, don't visit porn sites, don't open unexpected attachments sent to you in mail and stay away from warez, random cheats, etc. the amount of malware you'll be in risk of encountering is going to be reduced dramatically.
But the average user is not going to behave like that, and the only thing you can really do to reduce the amount of botnets crapping up the internet is forcing security updates on them.
*No, Windows 10 does not push ads itself. The non-system, pre-installed, free, and easy to uninstall Solitaire Collection has ads in certain modes.
bassoferrol on 19/8/2015 at 16:40
As I love you so bad, you shall marry me.
doctorfrog on 19/8/2015 at 22:44
Quote Posted by Thirith
The thing is, I don't think of my computer as a tightly controlled storefront. If that is what my machine is, it's doing a very poor job of it, because I'm pretty much doing exactly the things on it that I did on my very first computer (plus online stuff - our first couple of PCs at home were before the internet) and I've yet to buy anything on the Windows Store or whatever it's called. It's quite possible that Windows is keeping a large number of people from doing what they want with their PCs for reasons of control and commerce, but most of the comments I read to that extent aren't about what Microsoft actually does but what it could conceivably do, with a large helping of "Just you wait and see...". I've been waiting, but I haven't seen much as yet.
Like I say before, I'm running Windows 7. I can choose which updates to install, and though I do not have a MS storefront running on it, I do have a non-optional gaming storefront (Steam) that I must keep installed and running if I want to play certain games. I don't want any more, frankly, I could do without Steam.
Can you remove the store? Would you remove it if you could? If so, why? If not, what about people who do?
Does Microsoft have or not have a history of planting stuff in their OSs that can't be removed, can't be turned off, that eventually start to creep into other aspects of their operating systems, and are only half-addressed after long, drawn-out lawsuits?
"This doesn't affect my personal use case right now," heck, I could say that, but why not be wary? Why not struggle a li'l bit against it, seek out alternatives, ask for something better?
Renzatic on 20/8/2015 at 02:21
I don't think you can remove the Windows Store, but it's use is entirely optional. You'll only be using it to update some of the newer default apps, which can be removed or replaced.
Who knows how it'll end up years down the road, but for now, nothing's stopping you from installing your software how you see fit.
Thirith on 20/8/2015 at 04:50
Quote Posted by doctorfrog
"This doesn't affect my personal use case right now," heck, I could say that, but why not be wary? Why not struggle a li'l bit against it, seek out alternatives, ask for something better?
Sure, that's fair enough. My reply was to your comment about W10 making your computer a "tightly controlled storefront", and that simply doesn't gel in any way with my experience of it.
EvaUnit02 on 20/8/2015 at 06:43
Hey remember the whole thing about Windows 10 supposedly disabling pirated games/software? (
http://www.gamnesia.com/news/it-turns-out-microsoft-cant-disable-pirated-games-on-windows-10) It was inaccurate bullshit fuelling clickbait articles! Where is your God now? But never mind that, the sky is still falling and Linux will one day become a mainstream consumer friendly OS and also a viable alternative for gamers...
when hell freezes over.heywood on 20/8/2015 at 23:45
The link you just posted doesn't offer any basis for that conclusion.
Maybe you should just read the Microsoft Services Agreement and FAQ. Links here:
(
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/default.aspx) https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/default.aspx
(
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/faq.aspx) https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/faq.aspx
The particular section you need to get acquainted with is this one:
Quote Posted by Microsoft
7. Updates to the Services or Software, and Changes to These Terms.[INDENT]a. We may change these Terms at any time, and we’ll tell you when we do. Using the Services after the changes become effective means you agree to the new terms. If you don’t agree to the new terms, you must stop using the Services, close your Microsoft account and/or Skype account and, if you are a parent or guardian, help your minor child close his or her Microsoft account or Skype account.
b. Sometimes you’ll need software updates to keep using the Services. We may automatically check your version of the software and download software updates or configuration changes, including those that prevent you from accessing the Services, playing counterfeit games, or using unauthorized hardware peripheral devices. You may also be required to update the software to continue using the Services. Such updates are subject to these Terms unless other terms accompany the updates, in which case, those other terms apply. Microsoft isn’t obligated to make any updates available and we don’t guarantee that we will support the version of the system for which you licensed the software.
c. Additionally, there may be times when we need to remove or change features or functionality of the Service or stop providing a Service or access to Third-Party Apps and Services altogether. Except to the extent required by applicable law, we have no obligation to provide a re-download or replacement of any material, Digital Goods (defined in section 14(b)(v)), or applications previously purchased. We may release the Services or their features in a beta version, which may not work correctly or in the same way the final version may work.
d. So that you can use material protected with digital rights management (DRM), like some music, games, movies and more, DRM software may automatically contact an online rights server and download and install DRM updates.
[/indent]
This agreement applies to the long list of services at the bottom of the first link above. It is possible that a person could use Windows 10 without any of these services and therefore not be bound by this agreement, but that is unlikely in practice.
icemann on 21/8/2015 at 02:28
Which is essentially turning your PC into an XBox. No thanks.
