Dia on 13/7/2013 at 22:14
You silver-tongued devil you.
;)
Starker on 13/7/2013 at 23:34
Quote Posted by Chade
Well, certainly focus can substitute for player skill. But if you look at all the things we know focus can be used for, it's always the game making it easier for the player to accomplish tasks they could have done anyway. That's pretty much the idea behind the training wheel analogy.
That is your interpretation of it, but does it make sense to include such a major gameplay device as training wheels? Especially when it's so closely tied to the plot? To me, it suggests that the focus has shifted to a more hand-holdy action oriented game and parkour sequences and QTEs seem to support that. And I think we've already talked about why focusing too much on action in a stealth game is a bad idea.
demagogue on 14/7/2013 at 02:21
Well I'm getting settled in Tokyo now so can be around more.
Reading how you guys describe things, my personality is almost natively skeptical towards most companies, and I usually take it for granted that they work under limits (monetizing, etc) so you can only expect so much within those limits. Like I have next to zero faith food companies will ever really care about consumer health, or oil companies the environment... Game companies I have a little more faith in making games because the devs were usually gamers first, but I still recognize they feel that pinch and at best may be conflicted.
What's always amazing to me is that even under those limits sometimes really inspiring games still come out. Recently I thought, e.g., Mirror's Edge and Stalker were made under unique conditions that let them rise above the pack. I just find that taking that broader view helps placing any individual game in context.
As for T4, Dishonored was the recent bar-setting game for the stealth genre IMO, although short and flawed in places there was a lot I liked... But I think that sets some context for how much we should expect from EM in the current environment. But if you wanted to break out and think about what would be *most* inspiring right now, kind of like asking what would be the most healthy food you could ideally get on the market right now, you'd practically need a totally different context that sometimes appears in history but I don't know if there's a place for it these days... I'm still interested in what T4 brings to the table, though, because that's setting the context for stealth games to come too.
Vae on 14/7/2013 at 08:56
Quote Posted by Dia
You silver-tongued devil you.
Esme...Lady Rowena...nickie...Dia
I'd have to say, in the best way, you are like Valkyrie to me.
Lady Rowena on 14/7/2013 at 09:07
Quote Posted by Vae
Esme...Lady Rowena...nickie...Dia
I'd have to say, in the best way, you are like Valkyrie to me.
LOL, I don't have le physique du rôle, I'm afraid. :D
BTW, I didn't know that Esme is female.
Vae on 14/7/2013 at 09:11
Quote Posted by Lady Rowena
LOL, I don't have le physique du rôle, I'm afraid. :D
It is the beauty of your mind and spirit that impresses me, and the rest of the community.
Quote:
BTW, I didn't know that Esme is female.
Now you know she is a Valkyrie, just like you.
Esme on 14/7/2013 at 10:38
Quote Posted by Lady Rowena
LOL, I don't have le physique du rôle, I'm afraid. :D
BTW, I didn't know that Esme is female.
last time I checked I was ;)
my OH says I have valkyrie physique as well, I thought I was losing weight too :erg:
Chade on 14/7/2013 at 12:53
Quote Posted by Starker
That is your interpretation of it, but does it make sense to include such a major gameplay device as training wheels? Especially when it's so closely tied to the plot? To me, it suggests that the focus has shifted to a more hand-holdy action oriented game and parkour sequences and QTEs seem to support that.
I don't mean to imply that focus is just some minor device that will be discarded after the first few levels, which I guess the training wheels analogy does suggest. But it's not really what I was going for.
It seems pretty clear that focus is a tool to let you make moments easier, but not a tool that lets you do things you couldn't do otherwise. Every single example we've seen reinforces that afaik. It seems like common sense to me that players will start off depending on it pretty heavily, and then rely on it less and less over time. That's where I get the training wheels analogy from.
Unlike training wheels though (which are kinda clunky), focus is a source of convienient and "cool" abilities even for skilled players, so I expect that for that reason alone, many players will continue to use it for the duration of the game in some capacity, while other players find more satisfaction in not using it at all.
As far as making the game more action orientated, I don't think most of EM's changes have any effect. The two exceptions are:
1) the new linear action sequences. Well, this is a pretty open and shut case, no arguments about that. But we know it's not integrated into the main gameplay, it's just a small number of sequences bolted on here and there. I'm not happy about them, but as long as they stay walled off from the rest of the game I'm not terribly worried either.
2) Easier combat. Well, this all just depends how much easier it is, and what specifically is easier. How much easier to kill? How much easier to escape? If easier combat means it's easier to escape, or means you can fail to sneak a few more times but still can't fight your way through the mansion, then I think it still very much qualifies as a pure stealth game. If easier combat makes it reasonable to fight every guard in the level, then we have a problem ...
Quote Posted by Llama
to sum up what you said: game industry doesn't think stealth can carry a game these days so they're moving away from pure stealth by adding in a lot more action. Then goes on to point out thief is doing the same thing by adding in xp and more action oriented play. but dun worry guise, wink wink, because this is thief. All the changes that are being implemented are magically going to equate a pure stealth game.
Is that your honest attempt to sum up what I said? Do I really need to respond to this?
svs on 16/7/2013 at 08:24
Quote Posted by Dia
So save your chastisements and admonishments and lurk more. Catch up on your archived TTLG T4 Anticipation thread reading while you're at it. But don't you dare criticize us when you're so obviously clueless (and yes, as well as naïve).
No thanks. I will not review/score Thief based on past bad PR relations with a purist/hardcore fan clique. I've said my piece elsewhere on the EM's Thief PR, which admittedly was bad. They obviously announced way too early while they were still experimenting with the concept and let the fans
assume way too much. Given the concepts they experimented with, it's easy at least for me to see why they remained so silent - albeit I think the decision to say nothing was a poor one, though I can't say for sure what would've been the least bad
By the way, isn't it mighty hypocritical of you to say I'm not allowed to criticize you when I'm clueless, all the while you're being one of the most vocal critics of Thief - and you're clearly basing your opinion on hear-say and information facilitated
for you. You're obviously pretty clueless about Thief reboot, yourself. Just now I saw you saying "Who's Emmanuel Garcia?", which you had easily known had you paid even a little bit of attention. I actually have no problem in being critical (or even negative) of Thief, provided it's based on actual information.
And I wasn't criticizing just TTLG, mind you. I actually joined TTLG because the discussion here
is better than just stating "Thief will be shit" with no apparent rationale to back the claim up, the way it too often is over at the official forum (save for a few good posters). I don't think that kind of attitude or expression of opinion will benefit anyone.
I think I've got every right to be here over on Thief 4 anticipation, because, uh... I'm actually anticipating the new Thief. If you've given up on Thief already, that's fine with me. Although I personally think that's a silly attitude to have (and makes me wonder why you are frequently posting on the anticipation forum), since no matter what happened in past community or development wise, the new Thief is here
now and it's open to feedback. I think it's too early to throw in the sponge.
Dia on 16/7/2013 at 14:15
Of course you have every right to your opinions here at TTLG; I wasn't implying that you didn't. No one is asking you to 'review/score' T4 based on past dialogue TTLG Taffers had with EM; how in God's name did you come to that conclusion? What I'm trying to impart to you is that you don't have the right to criticize us for allegedly not being cooperative with EM or attempting to provide positive feedback since our history with EM here at the T4 forum proves unequivocally that just the opposite is and was true. I was pointing out that we've already DONE that and it resulted in an epic fail (as in they DIDN'T LISTEN TO US), so your criticism was unnecessary and terribly uninformed. As can be proven by the early original T4 threads wherein we enter into discussions with whatever current EM rep was deigning to have dialogue with us. (The first one was nice, though; really liked him. Until he was muzzled & then let go, that is.) How you came up with the idea that I was trying to force you to judge T4 based on the original exchange between EM and TTLG Thief fans is beyond me.
Regarding the names of the T4 devs - they mean nothing to me. I'm more interested in what I'm seeing in the T4 videos and reading about T4 in the interviews and reviews of the demos released thus far. I don't think it's hypocritical not to give a fig about the names of the devs, but to be more concerned with what they're doing to the game. I've never been much of a name-dropper when it comes to video games; I'm more interested in the game itself.
'clearly basing my information on hearsay'? Pretty much the same hearsay, as in videos, interviews, demos, and reviews; same ones everyone else here has seen, read, and/or heard. But you're telling me all this information was facilitated just for me? I don't think so; as far as I know I'm seeing, hearing, and reading the same info as everyone else in the galaxy, so it can hardly be called 'hearsay'. And just like any other information, it's all a matter of perspective, likes/dislikes, and preferences. Some people like what they've seen, heard, and read about T4, others don't. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
You really are naïve if you believe that any feedback you provide at this point is going to mean diddly-squat. What are you, like 12 or something? EM has already stated that they're making T4 to appeal to 'the greater gaming audience'; their decisions about the creation/production of this game have already been made. Though I understand some of your questions might be answered, if you're asking about something that's already been clearly stated, of course. Otherwise they won't be able to tell you that yet but they know you're gonna love it.
As to why I continue to post here on the T4 forums (not that it's any of your business or anything); guess I'm just hoping that something will change for the better. But EM continues to disappoint. Nothing silly about that. Although I'm beginning to think I'm becoming a glutton for punishment.
P.S. I don't have any sponges available, but I do have a few towels.
