Chade on 12/7/2013 at 15:12
Eh, well, EM certainly have some interest in winning us over. They have at least a foot or a leg in the race. But it's not their main focus, whereas for TDM we're the only game in town (this is the royal "we" here).
And look, I know no-one here will agree with me, but personally I think that's the way it should be. Thief is more then just the game we loved: it's the series that showed the AAA industry that stealth was fun. That same industry now seems to be unsure whether it wants pure stealth games or not. Splinter Cell seems to be moving away from pure stealth. Every other stealth experience getting the green light is mixed with action. The industry seems skeptical that stealth can carry a game all by itself. What I see in thief 4, and of course I could be wrong because there is a lot I don't know yet, but I see a deliberate and thoughtfull effort to overcome that trend.
To sell a pure stealth experience, EM are making a lot of these changes that we won't like. It all boils down to using carrots rather then sticks to encourage stealth and exploration within the game. Taking out the sword, using xp to reward stealth, making unconventional movement easier, using focus as a set of training wheels, showing off special loot, etc. These changes wouldn't make sense for the dark mod. They don't do anything to improve the game for us. But they do make sense for a game trying to show the industry that pure stealth is still viable.
Does that make thief a true "thief" game? If my rather optimistic opinion is true, and they pull it off, well ... yes, I believe it does.
And TDM, of course, is also a true "thief" experience ... it just achieves that in a completely different way.
Springheel on 12/7/2013 at 15:50
Quote:
Every other stealth experience getting the green light is mixed with action. The industry seems skeptical that stealth can carry a game all by itself. What I see in thief 4, and of course I could be wrong because there is a lot I don't know yet, but I see a deliberate and thoughtfull effort to overcome that trend.
Thief may indeed be fighting this trend, but given the way Roy talks about action being a viable approach, I'm not sure it's winning.
retractingblinds on 12/7/2013 at 17:46
Quote Posted by Springheel
Thief may indeed be fighting this trend, but given the way Roy talks about action being a viable approach, I'm not sure it's winning.
It's not fighting anything. It's embracing modern design as well as the developers can force it in there. Thief 4 already looks like a very confused game mechanically.
svs on 12/7/2013 at 20:26
I think EM is clearly putting itself against some trends with Thief. The general direction is a good one, but they have given in at places. To be honest, if anyone expected a triple-A caliber produced Thief to be free of modern influences, that would have been one naive outlook to have.
I generally think the community should be more supportive of what they're trying to accomplish. Should the Thief community be a little more constructive, I'd feel we'd be in a little more credible position to actually be listened to. Criticism is all well and good when it's combined with constructive feedback but saying anything along the lines "this ain't Thief at all" is, in my opinion, either utterly uninformed or simply denying a whole lot of things and unfairly so.
I'm pretty sure they keep their ear close to the ground; but it would make it much more worthwhile if there was something valuable to be found. Someone(s) of the EM moderators actually said that the developers are reading the forums, but are forbid to answer by some company policy that's imposed upon them. It must be damning to be a developer and read the forums, heh.
Naively, I think this is one chance to show that Thief-like games are still relevant to the gaming scene; otherwise I fear the mainstream will keep producing more of the same. I'd hope for the community to keep producing valuable feedback until the game comes out. If the final product will be crap, I'll be among the first to admit it - and will not trust EM until they put out something significantly good. But at this point, I have no reason to believe they wouldn't be trying their damnest with Thief.
386DX on 12/7/2013 at 22:21
EM had years since 2009 when they announced it, to hear what fans hoped to see in the next direct sequel (Thi4f) to TDS and criticisms of where that title went wrong in 2004. You would find an overwhelming consensus to Stephen Russell reprising his role as Garrett again, factions making an appearance once more to keep the world of The City intact, rope arrows ect.
What we got was silence for years and sudden devastating announcements in April, especially that the game was a reboot and not a direct sequel and that Stephen Russell was dumped for technology which I think made the game lose a chunk of the "soul" as Dia put it. Apparently all we get is lip service and a few bones here and there. Constant guarantees that they are true Thief fans is an attempt to placate fans but sounds pathetic, desperate, and self conscious. Preserving the "Thief DNA" (shadow based stealth, similar weapons, guy named Garrett as the main character, setting in The City) is used over and over again to justify that this is a Thief game but it's a scapegoat to add all that is definitely not Thief including poor modern day game mechanics. Apparently when we said rope arrows we needed to specify that in 2013 we need arrows with current technology but with the same FREEDOM OF 1998. :tsktsk:
At this point TDM is by far the best thing to a sequel to the Thief games made by LGS and I would rather throw $60 their way instead of at EM. BTW how would I be able to do that? Seriously. :confused:
Dia on 12/7/2013 at 22:24
Quote Posted by svs
I generally think the community should be more supportive of what they're trying to accomplish. Should the Thief community be a little more constructive, I'd feel we'd be in a little more credible position to actually be listened to. Criticism is all well and good when it's combined with constructive feedback but saying anything along the lines "this ain't Thief at all" is, in my opinion, either utterly uninformed or simply denying a whole lot of things and unfairly so.
Oh God; here we go again. We, as in the Thief community here at TTLG, have
already tried that route - and T4 is where it got us. If you'd go back to the initial interaction we had with the first EM rep several years ago right after Thi4f was announced and actually read through those threads and dialogues you'd
know that. We Taffers were constructive and supportive as hell and EM made quite a few, if not actual promises, then reassurances about what the NuThief game would be like. We provided feedback gladly, willingly, and even cheerfully because we took EM & their rep at their word that they
were listening to us. From what I've read, the first batch of T4 devs were actually doing just that at the time. And then the rapid turnovers started at EM and each of our successive assigned EM contacts started becoming progressively more aloof until they just stopped posting here, period. And it sure as hell wasn't anything we said, either! Don't you
dare assume that we never gave EM positive or constructive feedback, that we never tried to cooperate with them! For the first year after the news came out that there'd be another Thief game we were all ridiculously giddy as schoolgirls, flattered that EM appointed a representative, a real, live person to be a liaison between TTLG Taffers and EM. And you see where that got us. Or do you? Their last rep was snippy and overly defensive for no apparent reason and trying to maintain a dialogue with him was a lesson in futility. EM stopped communicating with
us, not the other way around, you dolt.
Oh yeah ... EM's keeping their collective ears to the ground alright. But we're not the ones they're listening to. I refuse to support something I don't believe in; something in which I no longer have any faith and NuThief is becoming just that in spite of everything we were told by our original EM contact. (Who, by the way, seemed to disappear around the time a lot of the first dev team did, if reports are accurate.)
So save your chastisements and admonishments and lurk more. Catch up on your archived TTLG T4 Anticipation thread reading while you're at it. But don't you dare criticize us when you're so obviously clueless (and yes, as well as naïve).
Where's jtr when you need him?!
P.S. Well said, 386.
Shinrazero on 12/7/2013 at 22:59
Nailed it.
Starker on 13/7/2013 at 03:20
Quote Posted by Chade
...using focus as a set of training wheels...
See... I don't think that is the case. They say that focus is tied to the story and it might be even central to it, it seems. In the interviews, when they say that they have added the option to disable it for the few people that might not like it, they add that they really hope people will try it regardless. It's there to show that Garrett is the master thief, apparently. With the addition of XP, to me it seems like they have traded much of the player skill for character skill and that it's deliberate.
Esme on 13/7/2013 at 12:14
Quote Posted by svs
I generally think the community should be more supportive of what they're trying to accomplish. Should the Thief community be a little more constructive, I'd feel we'd be in a little more credible position to actually be listened to. Criticism is all well and good when it's combined with constructive feedback but saying anything along the lines "this ain't Thief at all" is, in my opinion, either utterly uninformed or simply denying a whole lot of things and unfairly so.
Well back in 2009 EM announced the game, and they also opened a forum where they requested (please note they requested,
they asked the fans) for ideas, suggestions,contributions thoughts on what made the original games great, what should be in the new games.
So I went, and dutifully poured my heart and soul into their forum, I made suggestions, I argued myself out of a few of them, I told people how Thief originally hooked me, I described in detail what I considered to be the core of the game and what should and should not be in the new game.
I was always respectful, I was always honest, if someone told me I was wrong I would listen and on occasion agree and change my mind.
All this effort was put in in the belief that EM were listening because this was what they asked us for.
My reward for this labour of love, and make no mistake it is a love for the game, was 4 years of utter blank silence.
I may as well have been howling down a well for all the response from EM, less actually as then I'd have at least had an echo.
Over the years I watched the forum degenerate into infighting, cliques, sniping and trolling and slowly all the positive suggestions, encouraging comments and constructive ideas were buried under a mountain of negativity.
Eventually I gave up on EM and requested my membership of their forum be cancelled, this took the best part of a year to accomplish, during which time an official announcement was made.
I did consider cancelling my request to leave at this point but then the silence resumed, along with more trolling, infighting yadda yadda...
So I wanted patiently for my membership to be cancelled.
Then a few months later EM released more information, which I dutifully absorbed, and checked against all the previous positive suggestions, encouraging comments, good ideas, wants and desires posted in the forum for the previous four years.
You remember, the ones the fans were asked for, that they poured their collective heart and soul into, those.
I failed to find a correlation between what EM were doing and what they asked the fans to tell them.
Then I finally managed to get my membership cancelled.
So please don't accuse me of not being positive or making constructive comments, I was positive and constructive when I thought they were listening, it turns out they weren't or would have nothing to complain about now.
EM can make whatever game they like and I hope it's successful for them, but it will be nothing to do with what the fans have asked them for and as far as I'm concerned it won't be Thief in anything but name unless they make some radical changes.
I was supportive, I was encouraging, I was constructive, I was
ignored, so I am out.
Lady Rowena on 13/7/2013 at 12:18
I agree with you on all you said.
Quote Posted by Dia
Where's jtr when you need him?!
Maybe we should start a petition.....:devil:
