skacky on 24/9/2022 at 10:54
The main incentive for limiting saves is to have players roll with their mistakes instead of reloading at the slightest mishap, to increase tension and to adapt to whatever situation they may find themselves in. The system works pretty well in Hitman for example. The main caveat is that, for stealth games and games with open-ended level design in general, it can be detrimental to exploration and experimentation if the enemy is strong by default (such as guards in Thief), if you don't have a lot of ways to retaliate and if getting detected or killing people results in bad scores at the end of a mission. Deathloop's approach is particularly successful in that regard because there is no scoring system and Colt is a murder machine, so if stealth goes out of the window, combat is a very viable option most of the time. Obviously, this would not be the case with a game that puts a much stricter emphasis on stealth versus combat.
Still, I am of the opinion that limiting saves for specific modes is a good idea, for example an expert difficulty that gives you a few items you can use to save your game, and that you can also purchase or find in the world. You already know it but that was the main idea for my game document, in addition to being vulnerable for a few seconds when you use them.
Daft Mugi on 24/9/2022 at 19:10
If the goal of restricted saving is to increase tension by forcing the player to adapt to being discovered, I think the game is no longer purely a stealth game, such as Thief. Once the player is discovered, there is no more stealth involved. It's like an insta-death in a shooter. If we include power fantasies here, the stealth power fantasy is gone. Therefore, it's either a mix of genres or a new yet to be named genre.
The new genre could be a "chase game," perhaps? The stealth part is a time to collect resources and put the player in a better position for the inevitable chase. The player is rewarded during the chase instead of during the stealth part.
So, my question is: Are game designers actually wanting a different genre than stealth when they restrict saving?
Edit: To add a bit more context, it's hard to understand removing the save function (and all the negatives that come with that) when the player can self-impose no saving to increase tension and adapt to being discovered. Iron mode is an example of this. Sure, there's the thrill of completing the objectives without getting killed, but I'm not sure what the power fantasy is there. Instead of stealth, the power fantasy is to outsmart the guards? Hence, my question about mixed genres or a new genre.
fortuni on 24/9/2022 at 19:24
Another concern for restricting quicksaves is that Thief requires considerable amount of use for rope arrows but if you miss that thin bit of wood high up on a building you lose that rope arrow permanently, so I always quicksave before using them (or any arrow for that matter).
Yes authors can accommodate this by placing many more arrows, and other essential power ups where necessary in their missions if quicksaves were restricted but are you not then veering into altering the very fundamentals of a game that more often than not gives players just enough arrows and other power ups to complete the mission, without flooding their inventory with excessive tools,
SlyFoxx on 24/9/2022 at 20:17
I'm too old not to QS
baeuchlein on 25/9/2022 at 02:54
Why don't game designers let every player decide for himself/herself what is desired? There are always the die-hard players who prefer to play with at least one hand tied behind the back, a blindfold over the eyes, and possibly a large heavy brick tied to their exposed reproductive organs. They may self-impose restrictions on their playstyle if they want, but I get REALLY upset if anyone wants to force someone else to adopt a certain playstyle or other restrictions (especially if that someone else turns out to be me, myself and I). That is one reason why The Dark Mod never stayed long on my machines - for me, there are too many restrictions in the majority of missions for TDM. (Not concerning savegames in this case, but gameplay-wise.)
Give me freedom to save whenever I want! If I am still making one save after another in less than a minute, then chances are good that either I might be not bright enough for that game, or the game designer didn't do a good job for that particular spot in the game.
Furthermore, if savegames are limited in any way, everything that interrupts playing (such as someone discovering that I have to buy something right now (or we're all gonna die)) becomes a real nightmare. I still remember the idiotic savegame policy of the first Far Cry game: The levels had about four to eight places where the game would automatically save the first time the player walks through (and never ever again unless you restarted the whole level), and if you walked over three out of four save spots in the first few minutes of playing a level, you wished you could turn your machine gun towards the one designer who thought this was a brilliant idea. Especially since the save spots were not marked in any way, and sometimes were not in a good place either (if you ask me, anyway). And of course, there was no other way of making saves than this one.:mad:
On a side note: Quicksaves are not needed for making a DML. Recently, I sent several "regular" savegames to Jax for DML building, and he reported no problems with them. I also fail to recognize any difference in quicksaves and "regular" savegames in Thief.
downwinder on 25/9/2022 at 05:38
after reading some of these posts i feel quick save is ok as long as its stated they used quick save feature,no we dont need to know how many times it was used ,just stating was completed with quick saves/loads would be fair
klatremus on 29/9/2022 at 16:28
I don't see any reason to force save restrictions on people. However, I am totally for providing that option in the game settings. It would make for a cool playstyle, sort of semi-ironman, and would definitely increase the tension of the playthrough. However, since my style is a challenging version of ghosting, playing with save restrictions has never even been an option for me. I have tried iron-ghosting, but like Phantom0914 mentioned, it just isn't fun for medium/hard missions. And for Supreme ghosting I would never even consider it.
I don't think the limit to saving argument is particularly against ghosting, though that topic has emerged in the ghosting community quite frequently the last couple of years. Reasons for having limits to saving that I can think of are:
1) Force of habit; the player is used to playing like that from other video games
2) Increased immersion; perhaps especially in stealth games this is a better argument than other genres
3) Increased challenge and tension
4) Increased replayability (though having to start a mission over every time I call tedious)
5) Seeing others saving too much and wanting to impose a limit to their playstyle
Azaran on 22/10/2022 at 19:09
I'm ok with higher difficulties having some kind of quick save restriction, it will make you more conscious of your actions. That said, it shouldn't be removed entirely for obvious reasons (more saving my progress rather than being lazy)
Quote Posted by marbleman
I don't want this to turn into a debate thread
Pit the Virgin Quicksave Junkie against the Chad Ironman :p
redfalcon on 23/10/2022 at 21:56
I don't like the idea because I feel many game designs nowadays are too controlling.I feel older games cared less about letting player do what they want. Nowadays everything has to e balanced or controlled and not just in stealth games.I think thief is challenging enough like this and if players don't want to use quicksaves they can just not use them. In the case of Thief I also feel it is more a case of comfort to be able to use quicksave than to have to use manual saves through menu.
Tomi on 27/10/2022 at 14:13
Quote Posted by redfalcon
I don't like the idea because I feel many game designs nowadays are too controlling.I feel older games cared less about letting player do what they want. Nowadays everything has to e balanced or controlled and not just in stealth games.I think thief is challenging enough like this and if players don't want to use quicksaves they can just not use them.
I think that the game design plays a huge role in all this though. The levels have to be designed either for people who hit quickload at the first sign of trouble, or for people who prefer not to quickload... or "everything has to be balanced", like you said. Thief is a fairly easy game by today's standards, but in most cases the "people can just choose not to quicksave" doesn't really work, because a lot of games are designed with save scumming in mind. And that's a shame.