Ricebug on 20/3/2005 at 15:05
I've pasted the following quotes from people at Ion Storm to show why there may be so many problems (bugs) with the Thief 3 editor:
...there was tenative plans to release the editor to the community. all of this is of course dependant on some programmer attention (emphasis mine) in order to make the editor stand-alone. (Faceless, an ex-ISA designer who worked on Thief 3)
I’m pleased to announce that we have been (quietly, by necessity) working for several months on the process of releasing the Deadly Shadows editing toolset to the fan community. This is not a guarantee; there are numerous technical and policy-based obstacles that remain to be negotiated. (Jordan Thomas, Ion Storm)
"...the amount of time and effort and money that would be required to make them (the SDK) releasable is pretty dramatic, and as the number of people who I think would be capable of using them shrinks, you know... the payback I guess for the time and effort to make them publicly useable, it just goes down, y'know". (Warren Spector, Ion Storm)
I could go on, but if you read between the lines, here's what happened:
1. Ion Storm built T3DS on a networked/server setup, which is SOP.
2. To move the SDK from a network environment to a stand-alone required significant re-programming (re-read the above quotes)
3. IS was facing imminent shut-down by Eidos. They probably had a couple of guys under pressure to "just get it done" to keep good faith with the fan base.
4. BAM! The editor lands in our laps. Everyone dances and pops the champagne bottles open.
5. A few months later, a growing realization that something is seriously wrong with the toolset.
If you think I'm just ranting and raving, look at the posts. 80% of them deal with getting the thing to run, and run reliably. It's really sad. I love the whole Thief series and I love to design levels also.
Ricebug
Dark Arrow on 20/3/2005 at 15:18
The editor is new. You need to give it time. The installation instructions are not clear, or rather they are as clear as they can get, the installation is just difficult for those who can't read proper instructions. Plus the guys who released the tools probably didn't have the resources to test it on every possible system configuration. After time the community will learn the bugs that the editor has and we can gather information of what shouldn't be done with the editor and what system the editor seems to be most optimized.
If something is going to kill the editor, then it will be its limitations and when speaking of limitations, the OMs can not be said to show them.
Give it time and we shall see what we can do with the editor.
[Edit]I mean, Some of us have been working with dromed for five years and you know if you have used it, dromed is the devil. :devil: (Even with dromed some people can't get the thing to run. Just do a search about GUI font errors.)
bloodyzeppelins on 20/3/2005 at 16:18
Of course people are having trouble with the editor. I don't think that any rational person expected it to be flawless.
It works fine for me, by the way. No lock-ups or anything.
SneaksieDave on 20/3/2005 at 16:38
But from the browsing count, and posts that are not about difficulties, shouldn't it be obvious that something might be wrong with your local setup, or the things you are doing (for instance, brush manip without rebuilding, etc.)? I really don't understand all the problems you're experiencing, but if you stick with it, things will probably improve for you. Of all the editors I've worked with, color me surprised but, T3Ed is the most stable I've used. That includes the Dooms, the Unreals, the Thiefs, and beyond. Heck, I've even had fewer crashes and problems per time used from T3Ed than I have from TES3 Construction Set. Like I said - color me surprised. ;)
Edit: Hey, wait a second... you slipped some funky stats in there. So, 3393 * 0.80 = 2714 posts about getting the editor to run?! Holy exaggeration batman! A tad unfair? Probably closer to 2-3%. There are three documented (posts, and the wiki) methods on getting it to run - heck, one is even automated. If someone is having trouble beyond that, they might reconsider editing.
Agetian on 20/3/2005 at 17:06
I agree with SneaksieDave. T3Ed, once ran properly, is very stable, at least on my system. That might sound funny, but I've had a lot more troubles with various editors for Quake/Half-Life than with T3Ed.
I think the editor is just new, so it just takes time to figure out how to work with it correctly.
- Agetian
Mandrake on 20/3/2005 at 18:50
Quote Posted by Ricebug
I've pasted the following quotes from people at Ion Storm to show why there may be so many problems (bugs) with the Thief 3 editor:
Still at it eh ? :rolleyes:
What constructive purpose does this message serve ? 80% of the posts are about problems getting it to run ?? I don't think so somehow....
Renzatic on 20/3/2005 at 18:57
The only problems I've seen people have with the editor is getting their maps to work standalone. The editor itself seems to be perfectly suitable for making maps and scripts.
While an SDK would've been really damn nice, in the end it isn't necessary for making quality FM's. Dromed didn't have one backing it up, and look at all the extras that were added into it by the community over the last few years.
bukary on 20/3/2005 at 19:27
Quote Posted by Ricebug
5. A few months later, a growing realization that something is seriously wrong with the toolset.
The only SERIOUS problem that we've found so far is (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94963) Static Buffer Vertex Error. If we don't fix this bug, T3Ed will really become a useless tool.
Did I mention that I cannot get the lockpicks to work? :(
Krypt on 20/3/2005 at 19:59
Quote:
1. Ion Storm built T3DS on a networked/server setup, which is SOP.
2. To move the SDK from a network environment to a stand-alone required significant re-programming (re-read the above quotes)
This is true. Because of this, I'm not sure how triggerscripts, gamesys, or global flags/ints will be distributed for FMs. We worked on them by checking them in and out of a database so other people could get your changes automatically by getting new game content off the network. That's just an issue of figuring out which files to include though, no big deal really. I think it will be possible to make bigger, more detailed maps with all kinds of new features with this toolset. It will just take some figuring out and creativity.
The thing I'm worried about though is the lack of documentation for some things. For example there are a ton of extremely useful console command diagnostics that I can't remember anymore, and they may never be figured out. The big one I've been trying to remember is the command to go into the debug menu which is a GUI that accesses a lot of the diagnostics, but I can't recall what to type to get it. If anyone can guess what the command is by trial and error I'm sure the community would thank you very much once they see all the handy stuff it has :p Other things, like the navmesh, gamesys, triggerscripts and such are all very involved systems that people have to just figure out for themselves.
van HellSing on 20/3/2005 at 20:04
Krypt, do you mean the debug menu in the editor's version of the game executable? If yes, then it doesn't need a console command, it can be opened via pressing backspace. Handy indeed :thumb:.
