mopgoblin on 29/2/2008 at 19:53
Quote Posted by Vivian
Anyway, I know what you're point is, but let me explain my view of altruism a bit more: 'Altruism' is defined as a selfless act, one in which there is no benefit to the protagonist at all.
I disagree with your definition. Altruism is an act with selfless motivations; there may be benefits for the protagonist, but any such benefits are not the primary motivation.
piano-sam on 29/2/2008 at 22:33
Cause runnin' the show like we are now is more profitable than doing what we should do, like growing food for people who don't have it.
Carl Sagan said something about in the next couple centuries humanity would either resolve our differences and unite, or obliterate eachother a few decades back.
I'll get the AKs, Scott, you and me brother- lets start the reckoning.
jtr7 on 29/2/2008 at 23:04
Hahahaha! Fight fire with fire and fuel! Pay bloodshed with more bloodshed! Eyes for eye, teeth for tooth...! Heck, let's rape AND kill every rapist, and rape AND kill every murderer, and we'll think of how we can one-up the rapists who also murder! If we not only give our enemies what they deserve, but go further than that, we can tell ourselves we aren't hypocrites, and we haven't stooped, and we are doing something GOOD and constructive. We can tell ourselves we are ridding the world of rotten human beings. We can celebrate and worship ourselves by firing our guns into the air. We are so much better than our enemies! They are sub-human! They refused to evolve, so they must die!
Wheeee!
Inline Image:
http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff250/TheLoyalCommunity/smileys/fishwhack_orig.gifpiano-sam on 29/2/2008 at 23:11
Ok, you can have an AK too, jtr.
jtr7 on 29/2/2008 at 23:46
Cool! Got any explosives?
Oh, and... I got a name for our movement: "The Crusade"
Huh? Huh? Isn't the irony delicious?
And we will run this movement like a spear right through bowels of our enemies. And when we take power, and play King of the Mountain of carcasses, we will then subjugate the weak for OUR elite purposes, which our enemies have denied our earth-given right to fulfill.
Raven on 1/3/2008 at 08:36
To the first poster:
Don't worry, you are just getting older. Soon that greed will set in for yourself. Oh you will not see it as greed; you'll justify it by things like provision for family/being self reliant, not being a burden on your parents, providing for your parents when they are old or perhaps even not letting the company/your employees down. You will fall into one of pots
1: You earn big (enough) money to do all that stuff and then will be shattered when you get any free time. At this point you won't be able to do anything like solve the worlds problems in your free time, you will have worked so hard for the above reasons that you will need your rest during any free time. The closest you'll get is to discuss the worlds problems while drinking beer. At this point those luxury items that are destroying the majority of the world become comfort goods that you feel that you have earned (such as non-fair trade food, gas for your familys svu, a gun to protect your family, a scud rocket to protect your country). Oh you may not be doing hard labor or a high stress job, you may even by doing menial work. Either way it will be to high stress orto mind numbing that by the end of the day you will not be able to give any more - and then after working for the man/the company you have your own personal life to worry about.
2: You choose an ethical job to try and solve the worlds problems, but the people from pot 1 never pay you enough because they don't see the importance of what you are trying to do. Is it their fault they have become so "self involved" due to the reasons listed at the start? Path 2 is not guiltless either - since you are not earning enough you quickly find that you can't actually fullfill the obligations that I listed at the start. That just causes all sorts of other problems.
Ofcourse the premise of your first post is 100% correct. You are absolutely correct - we should have solved the worlds problems. But the greedy people in set one can't think past the obligations/justifications I list and the greedy people in set 2 spend all their effort trying to get money and people in set 1 to listen about the shortsighted bugbear that their ethical company is working to address.
:thumb:
Chade on 1/3/2008 at 09:01
At least the people in category 1 are promoting a society of peacefully minded individuals who would rather resolve grievances by whining on an internet forum then by blowing up their neighbor ...
Over time, I believe this indirect apathetic way of promoting world peace, which is carried out by billions of people (rather then a couple), is more powerful then the specific actions of those great and admirable men and women who have involved themselves in righting the wrongs of the human condition.
Although perhaps those individuals are necessary as figureheads ...
Raven on 1/3/2008 at 09:40
My first post was to point out the situation in the western world (IMHO).
After reading the rest of the thread I see that this has become a discussion about Altruism. I love the way that the question of does Alturism really exist totally distracts from people ACTUALLY getting of their arse and solving the worlds problems (this was the "discussion while drinking beer" that I was talking about). It provides a nice cushy barrier to the horrible reality of other people suffering. The whole question of "should I solve the world problems in the first place"? discussion. There was a great article in New Scientist about how we are more likely to help one person than we are to help two. What hope do the the people suffering in Dafur have?
Each person suffering IS an individual suffering - and the majority are suffering due to either our (as fellow humans) complacency or indeed our (as fellow humans) direct actions. It is a very horrible thought to take on. (This is the same concept which crucified the Son of GOD!) Human's are the only animal that CAN control their environment and so when fellow humans are suffering and we do not try to relieve their suffering it is a sin (...or call it "wrong" if you don't like the word sin). Blame is slightly mitigated by the valid concerns listed in my previous post and indeed the realities of the world, but ultimately each human is asked to act (see it as either through a moral/religious obligation or indeed an instinctual/evulotionary need). I am not suggesting anything LIKE guns blazing to bring democracy - that is a sham, and we all know it. All I am saying is that ultimately each person is only one person, and can only achieve so much. The end goal is relieving undue/inflicted suffering (aka world harmony) - the important part is the journey you take to try and get there!
Okay, I seem to be in full rant mode, so hold on to your hats. It is very galling in conversations about if god exist when the conversation turns to the inevitable "Why does God allow suffering? What about that tsunami, it was horrific, it wasn't caused by man, why did god send that to us! - Ha your god doesn't exist/is cruel and sadistic!". That is a different point from a different discussion - but seriously - how can man point at anything else and call them cruel and sadistic!!! Talk about pot and kettle! Okay natural disasters happen, drought in parts of the world cause famine and death. And WE SIT ON OUR ASSES! Humans can be nasty - but crimes of passions are far less common than crimes committed by people who think they are fighting to survive!
We use all the above listed reasons to completely ignore the individual in a far away land from suffering (and we divert our eyes when we walk past the begger on the street) - and when asked why we don't do anything about it.... we start discussing if the feeling that we should do something actually exists!
Please don't be dissuaded by the discussions that take place when you state the fact that you did in your first post. Note them, be prepared for the excuses that given - but don't except a discussion over altruism over discussion about how we can solve the problems of the world.
To which extend - here is a quickly thrown together list of how to alleviate undue suffering in the world
1. Make fresh clean water available to every community in the world. We have the technology to do this.
2. Divert research and resources away from KILLING MACHINES into efficient and clean transportation.
3. Without question use this transportation (or any) to take food to the hungry (every city and every country in the world) and feed them - there is enough food produced in the world to feed everybody.
4. Divert funds from defense budgets into high quality public transport.
5. Give everybody in the world a bike.
6. Stop making weapons
7. Focus on building/creating clean energy sources.
8. Stop wasteful production. Seriously just cut it out we don't need it.
9. Focus all human endvour on 1. alleviating suffering 2. Space travel (we will need to resources from other planets as the population grows)
Crimes of passion will still happen, we are after all human. But inset hatred built through years of distrust and feelings of oppressions - those would be forgotten if everyone IN THE WORLD had access to 3 good meals and plenty of water.
Martin Karne on 1/3/2008 at 16:05
Quote Posted by BR796164
Wait, you meant some you can meet in real life.
Bill Gates?
Funny is that he was reluctant to donate at first, but his wife got him convinced of doing it because of the taxes reduction.
How is that pirate with delusions of grandeur, is someone who you should admire and want to meet with him, I don't know.
