aardvark on 15/1/2002 at 10:05
I think that the Underworld games are the best rpg's ever made. I've played Baldur's Gate, the Diablo's, the Elder Scrolls games, Betrayal At Krondor, Dungeon Master, heck even Wasteland, the original Pool Of Radiance and NetHack. None of them even come close to the sense of immersiveness and fun I got (and get) from UU and UU2.
I wonder why this is. I think it's about layers of detail.
Popcorn. It's all about popcorn. If you've played the game you know what I mean. And undocumented stuff. Experimentation can pay off in an Underworld game. -- An automap that allows notes to be written on it. Many crpg designers still haven't caught on to the fact that this is an essential crpg feature.
Bags, pouches, coffers, boxes and packs. Put this in that and those two in this one and so on... It's game just playing with your boxes and coffers. Somewhat standard now but the Underworlds probably did it first.
If you can't unlock a door you can bash it but it might damage or even break your weapon. Of course, you can pick the lock or cast an opening spell on it too.
You learn a particular "monster language" and actually use it to communicate. (Amazing!) - If you find a musical instrument, you can actually play it by tapping keys on your keyboard, and a lute sounds different than a flute too.
Melee, close combat, something LGS was always quite good at simulating (while most other 3D game developers cop out by offering only ranged weapons in their games), was great. Pulling your weapon back and holding it as long as possible for a stronger attack was a brilliant touch and one that gave feedback to the player. Nice. Sounds like Thief doesn't it...
The Underworld levels are superb. It is fair to say that I have seen nothing like them in a game since. No skimpy dopey level one either. The first level of Underworld 1 is large, interconnected, diverse and challenging. It's really fun even when you go back to it now, and it teaches all of the basics for dungeon survival that a player will use throughout the rest of the game --without ever seeming like a trainer. Wow.
The Underworld games, particularly Underworld 2, are non-linear. Non-linear is a buzzword now. The Underworlds were among the first crpg's to eschew the typical linear "lead the player by the nose" design. Very cool.
I liked the ice (Yow!), yeti and snowballs. I liked clearing out monsters from a room, then moving in and arranging my stuff all over. I liked having to move my "apartment" as I explored deeper (or dimensionally displaced) levels. I loved flying and fighting. I loved teleporting. Boots of Jumping? You bet.
So....My question is: Why do YOU like the Underworld games? What do you think were the games' best features? If you didn't like them what do you think were the games' worst features? Why are the Underworld games so darn fun?
twisty on 15/1/2002 at 11:17
Quote:
Originally posted by aardvark:<br /><strong>I think that the Underworld games are the best rpg's ever made. I've played Baldur's Gate... None of them even come close to the sense of immersiveness and fun I got (and get) from UU and UU2.<br /></strong><hr></blockquote><br />I couldn't agree more. I've played a few of the RPGs that you've mentioned above and none of them even come close to either of the underworld games. No matter what RPGs that I've played over the years, none has satisfied me in the same way that the underworld games has. In fact, I usually walk away from other RPGs feeling a little dissapointed.<br />
I really find it amazing that after all these years I still get a lot of excitement out of these games. Perhaps for me, one of the most enjoyable aspects of the game is its intriguing charachters and side quests. What sets these side quests apart from so many games is that I found myself genuinely wanting to complete a quest because it was interesting rather than just wanting to get it over with so that I could get nearer to finishing the game.</p><br />
For the time, it had amazing AI, in my opinion. I can't think of any other game before it where a charachter would attempt to flee when badly injured in combat. </p><br />
I don't have time for that long a post at the moment, but I'll add some things later when I've thought of them.</p>
xman on 15/1/2002 at 15:19
For me, that's very simple.<br />I just LOVE to discover new worlds.<br />If these worlds are well designed, vast, immersive and if you can meet interesting populations, then that's all I need.<br />That's why I loved UUW (1 & 2 but especially 1 because you don't have to come back to already known places very often, which contributes even more to the pleasure of discovery) and that's also why I love Ultima IX and Dungeon Master (I think DM is as much important as UUW in the crpg world, and I hope Arx Fatalis will mark a new milestone in this field).
Brad Schoonmaker on 15/1/2002 at 23:26
I agree with all that. <img src="graemlins/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="[Thumbs Up!]" /> <br />I'd have to say, though, that
Might & Magic had a party to go around with you. This would've been great in a 3d crpg like the Underworlds. I haven't played the games mentioned above, so if it's been done, I just stick to the best and leave the rest alone. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Brad S.
PraetorJudis on 16/1/2002 at 12:38
Internal consistancy is a big one for me. The UU games (and the early Ultima games for that matter) have a remarkable reality that doesn't dramatically change every time they bring in a new plot point, ya know?
That and incredible pacing, excellent story-telling, good combat and inventory systems...
<br />I could go on and on... so I won't.
xman on 16/1/2002 at 16:47
Quote:
Originally posted by Brad Schoonmaker:<br /><strong>I'd have to say, though, that
Might & Magic had a party to go around with you. This would've been great in a 3d crpg like the Underworlds. I haven't played the games mentioned above, so if it's been done, I just stick to the best and leave the rest alone. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
<br />Indeed, in Dungeon Master you control a party of 4 members.<br />But you could have considered that party as a eight-armed character alone. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <br />Actually, controlling an unseparable group (especially in the ancient days when the movements were limiteded to constant steps in 4 directions) is not really far from controlling a single character.<br />But the real-time combat has always been something I like (and the turn-by-turn combat system of M&M and many other games sucks imho).
Brad Schoonmaker on 17/1/2002 at 00:32
Quote:
Originally posted by xman:<br /><strong>But the real-time combat has always been something I like (and the turn-by-turn combat system of M&M and many other games sucks imho).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, same here. I'm just talking about the idea of a party, but not necessarily multi-player, being a part of the game. In the old days of turn based play, it was done the best it could be done. Maybe having an AI controled party is the next step in the genre. <img src="graemlins/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="[Thumbs Up!]" /> Wish!
Brad S.
*edit*<br />
Quote:
Maybe having an AI controled party is the next step in the genre.<hr></blockquote>
I'm rereading this now and it sounds like I've never played a game with an AI controled party <img src="graemlins/erg.gif" border="0" alt="[erg]" /> Actually, I have. Many. I just meant for the Underworld type games (3d rpg genre) to have developed AI party systems for the player to access would be great, I think. If it already does exist, then I'm showing my ignorance. <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Brad Schoonmaker ]</p>
DCLXVI on 18/1/2002 at 19:39
When I played UW2 back in 1993, it was simply stunning - graphically I hadn't seen anything like it, and then there was the fact that it was in full 3D - something that, to the best of my knowledge, wasn't achieved by anything else until Duke Nukem 3D in 1995 (correct me if I'm wrong). Aurally, it had a soundtrack that I still listen today. But, by far the most importantly, it had - for want of a less clichéd phrase - unsurpassed gameplay immersion.
I actually cared about what I was doing. Most sub-quests were highly pointless, but I felt compelled to pursue them anyway. The characterisation was top quality, and characters didn't seem to just be trainers and vending machines on legs as they do in so many RPGs. I remember feeling saddened and angered that Lady Tory was murdered. The chilling similarities between Killorn Keep and Britannia. Going around the Pits of Carnage killing five people at a time in Jospur's fights gave me a power trip. The Ethereal Void was amazing, as was Loth's Tomb, the Ice Caverns and .. in fact, there wasn't a single bit of it that I didn't enjoy. UW2 was the most wonderful game ever, I love it with my entire soul and it's almost criminal that people can honestly claim that Half-Life or Quake - both excellent games admittedly - are the best games of all time.
I can't see another game in future having the same effect. As I say, a full-3D world and what by today's standards are god-awful graphics struck awe into me at the time, but as today every title is released with photo-perfect graphics, there seems to be little technical improvement that can make it stand out. And as storyline and gameplay go, I just can't see UW2's being bettered, ever.
I'm counting on Arx to prove me wrong.
[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: DCLXVI ]</p>
Shadowcat on 20/1/2002 at 13:07
I think computer games still have a long long _LONG_ way to go in the field of technical achievements. Sure today's games look much much better than UU, but it's still pretty damn obvious that it's a game in nearly all instances. I think it's going to be a while yet before that changes.
It's a while since I've played the Underworlds, but I think what I loved about them mainly boils down to immersion and freedom. I think these concepts touched just about every aspect of the game in one way or another.
To give just a single example, who could forget the thrill of figuring out a new spell on your own from the rune translations?
PraetorJudis on 20/1/2002 at 13:13
UUW1 has yet to be knocked out of my favorite game of all time spot. I have a DOS machine with an old SB in it, just for playing the UUW games.
