Who's great idea was it when they added parkour?

jtr7 on 6/4/2013 at 10:54

I fell in love with the games for a long list of reasons. Most of those reasons do not even exist in Thief[4], and many of them didn't exist or were severely reduced in TDS. The things I loved and liked made the things I never liked or really disliked in the older titles forgivable, though I never wanted those things carried over into a new title. What Thief has meant to me isn't being brought forward, evolved, progressed, included, increased...

Nuth on 6/4/2013 at 11:13

Quote Posted by jtr7

Me, too. Truth of the matter is that I'd be happier with a new story with all the elements I loved in Thief 1 including the out-dated graphics than what we apparently are getting with this NuThief. It would probably sell about 1000 copies, but at least I'd have another installment of Thief to play for the next many many years.

henke on 6/4/2013 at 11:19

Quote Posted by Tomi

As long as this parkour doesn't mean Prince of Persia style wall-running, I think it'll be fine.

^^^
This.

One of the things I liked most about Thief when I first played it was that your character could move in ways that until then hadn't been seen in First Person games. Mantling, leaning, using rope-arrows to get to places you weren't supposed to get to. I don't mind them expanding Garrett's set of moves and abilities, as long as it's not something over-the-top like wall-running. Sliding and vaulting for instance would be welcome additions.

heywood on 6/4/2013 at 11:35

Quote Posted by Specter

That story is certainly less optimistic than the others. Particularly concerning to me is the AI. Apparently, its low quality is the result of an early build. I hope that is the case.

Or it could be that the AI needs to be somewhat dumb to enable Thief-style stealth gameplay. By somewhat dumb, I mean moving in predictable patterns, limiting their visual scanning, staying out of dark areas, no looking up, etc.

Tomi on 6/4/2013 at 11:43

Quote Posted by heywood

Yep, my thoughts exactly. A totally human-like (realistic) AI probably wouldn't be very fun at all... A mansion guard believes that he's seen something suspicious, and instead of thinking that it's just a rat, he alerts all his comrades and they'll keep searching for you until you're caught.

Hmm, no thanks, I think I'd rather have a bit more dumb AI after all! :p But I'm certainly expecting it to be a little more advanced and less predictable than in the previous games... I suppose it's really difficult to find a good balance in this that'll please most of the players though.

jtr7 on 6/4/2013 at 11:45

The AI shouldn't be dumber than TDP, especially nowadays. Hmmm... No word yet on "silhouettes and shadows" detection (Bowie fans?).

Springheel on 6/4/2013 at 12:00

Quote:

Or it could be that the AI needs to be somewhat dumb to enable Thief-style stealth gameplay. By somewhat dumb, I mean moving in predictable patterns, limiting their visual scanning, staying out of dark areas, no looking up, etc.

I disagree. AI can and should be quite smart (relatively speaking) in stealth games. They're your primary obstacle, after all. The one exception is that you should keep them from noticing things that players have no (or limited) control over, which is why silhouette detection probably won't be used (imagine how difficult it is in a game with no peripheral vision to check if you have a lit window behind you). But there's no reason AI can't move and behave in fairly realistic ways. TDM has guards that do unpredictable things, that randomly look around as they walk, and that specifically go to the best hiding places first when searching. They also stay alert after seeing suspicious evidence, and share that information with their friends.

A new Thief game shouldn't rely on players tying one hand behind their back in order to have fun (which is essentially what "ghosting" is). The AI should provide a significant level of challenge, where you feel like you HAVE to use every tool and trick at your disposal in order to be successful.

jtr7 on 6/4/2013 at 12:08

Quote Posted by henke

Here's part of my reasoning: If Garrett is central, and this is Garrett we are talking about, not some portion of the individual players who don't care, and this is Garrett's story, and the trilogy canon isn't chucked out the window to serve the vision for the new game, then Garrett is a Master of Masters of not getting seen, not getting heard, not getting caught but through his contacts betraying him or being involved accidentally (this was the case every time, with Raoul being too loony and on his side to worry about, with TDS making it weird regarding the Widow Moira, and Artemus speaking on his behalf to Drept and Dyan), then he has no need for cool speed moves. Garrett doesn't flee 'cause he doesn't get caught. Giving players more abilities to screw up, or to not notice it's a stealth game, isn't serving the title or character well, making Garrett just a name. I never want the game to assume what I am going to do as I run toward a wall or roof edge, etc. No automated animation that takes my decisions and freedom away. No zones where the game assumes control. Just let me see for myself what my options are without hand-holding. Don't replace one move for another in the same key without a clear distinction (jump or mantle) where the other choice might be something I want instead and is useful for my own goals.

twisty on 6/4/2013 at 12:09

You know, I've often had the feeling that if LGS had the availability of the high-end technology we have today then if they were still around we would probably see a whole raft of changes and enhancements to the franchise that would seem just as adventurous and "rule-breaking" as what EM are putting forward today, if you were to contrast the the pseudo-traditionalist view of the recalcitrant fan-boi perspective with the legacy of advancement of gameplay over the past decade. I wonder what the reaction would be from this lunatic fringe if EM announced "follow" missions today, if had they never featured in any Thief games before (e.g. Ramirez & Mosely).

From all the information released through the press so far, there is nothing to indicate that this style of gameplay is mandatory. More-so that diverse options are being made available to help enrich gameplay.

Vasquez on 6/4/2013 at 12:18

Quote Posted by SilenTaffer

It's just that with all these added features - focus, parkour, probably more 3rd person scenes and the toning down on the magic portion of the game is just diluting some of the original elements of a Thief game.

So far it seems you get to choose how you play - and this was true for TDP and TMA, too. They are not making a fan mission out of pure, selfless, gold-hearted love for Thief, they're making a real game and have already put some serious investment into it, so obviously they're trying to find ways to attract more players than just the old hardcore Thief-fans. Giving more ways to play the game doesn't take away YOUR right to play it ghost or Lytha way or whatever, since it seems pretty clear that option still exists, too.

And whether it'll be "a REAL Thief game" or not - that's not an objective truth, it's up for every player to decide for themselves. It's okay to not want to play it or make strong conclusions based mainly on personal emotions, but it's ridiculously childish to whine here how "TRUE TAFFERS have the sense to HATE it, and if you don't hate you're a FAKE or a corporate whore or stupid and most of all wrong, wrong, WRONG".