Who's great idea was it when they added parkour?

Thirith on 8/4/2013 at 09:58

Quote Posted by Volca

I find it a bit sad how they try to sell the cooperation with thief "hardcore" players - that they voiced the Focus and other features should be optional, as a positive thing. Reading between the lines I see what they mean is more "This feature should not be there at all." than "I'd like to step up a challenge and try to play without that.".

You can give everything a negative spin - and in many cases such statements could also be made about the original games, which were largely predicated on giving the player choices (though less so than Deus Ex, admittedly). Taking your logic, you could say these things: Ghosting is optional --> ghosting shouldn't be possible. Or fighting guards is optional --> the option shouldn't be there.

@jtr7: From what I'm seeing, the Assassin's Creed and Mirror's Edge comparison, which is flimsy to begin with, is too often used in the same way as the facile argument that "It's coming out for consoles? Obviously it must be dumbed down crap." There's a lot of strawmanning going on in these threads, there's a lot of "It's new and different, ergo it must be bad!", and sometimes this just gets so bloody tiresome.

Volca on 8/4/2013 at 10:02

Quote Posted by Thirith

You can give everything a negative spin - and in many cases those original statements could also be made about the original games, which were largely predicated on giving the player a choice (though less so than Deus Ex, admittedly). Taking your logic, you could say these things: Ghosting is optional --> ghosting shouldn't be possible. Or fighting guards is optional --> the option shouldn't be there.

I am unsure if I follow your logic. Still, you're right to say that there is no certainty of what their (testers) reception is - so it's true, I am extrapolating.

jtr7 on 8/4/2013 at 10:08

That's precisely why we want answers and not to swallow the marketing trying to get us to buy it and try it and telling us we will like it, as if we don't know ourselves and our situation.

Thirith on 8/4/2013 at 10:25

Quote Posted by jtr7

That's precisely why we want answers and not to swallow the marketing trying to get us to buy it and try it and telling us we will like it, as if we don't know ourselves and our situation.

Look, I don't want to get into the discussion too much, mainly because I agree with SubjEff and dethtoll to a large extent, but I don't want to screw up your threads/forum. Just a quick one, but then I'll bow out:

- Marketing will try to reach the entire potential audience of a game. The old-school fans alone won't make this game a hit. In fact, they're unlikely to be a majority of the potential audience. It would be nice if old-school fans were given the feeling that they're catered to, but in marketing terms those old-school fans are simply not that important. In the best of all possible worlds, the marketing would make us happy as much as new audiences, but I think you're expecting too much - added to which, there are many people here who will give everything coming out of Marketing a negative slant, for whatever reason. "They're giving us options? Obviously the game lacks focus - no pun intended, ha ha!"
- Do you consider every first look and preview that has come out recently as marketing and nothing else? Compare the general tone here with those articles, e.g. the RPS or Eurogamer ones. They're by no means pretending that the new Thief looks perfect or that it pushes all of the buttons that original Thief did, but neither are they tearing every bit of information to shreds, eager to show that this is a dumbed down, kiddie-friendly Assassin's Creed/Dishonored hybrid. There are attempts at balance here, but they're drowned out by NMA-style howling and gnashing of teeth all too often.

Shinrazero on 8/4/2013 at 16:57

Quote Posted by Thirith

@jtr7: From what I'm seeing, the Assassin's Creed and Mirror's Edge comparison, which is flimsy to begin with, is too often used in the same way as the facile argument that "It's coming out for consoles? Obviously it must be dumbed down crap." There's a lot of strawmanning going on in these threads, there's a lot of "It's new and different, ergo it must be bad!", and sometimes this just gets so bloody tiresome.

There's good reason for concern about things getting dumbed down on consoles. One thing that I hated about TDS were the numerous loading sections and omission of series staples like the rope arrow. I attributed these changes to the fact that the developers had to accommodate the limitations of the Xbox.

Renzatic on 8/4/2013 at 17:07

Quote Posted by Shinrazero

It was the limitations of the Xbox and some very bad decisions early on that hurt TDS the most. They didn't dumb the gameplay down for the consoles so much as they couldn't do all they wanted to do with the gimpy renderer they were saddled with, the 64MB ram on the Xbox they had to fit everything into, and not enough time or money to fix everything that went wrong earlier.

Thief 4 is in an entirely opposite situation. They seem to have all the time and money in the world, and all their target platforms have 4-8GB of ram to play with. If it falls on its face and ends up sucking, it won't be because they had to dumb it down or cut something.

Volca on 8/4/2013 at 20:06

Quote Posted by jtr7

That's precisely why we want answers and not to swallow the marketing trying to get us to buy it and try it and telling us we will like it, as if we don't know ourselves and our situation.

There's an easy solution for you - just don't buy it (not the marketing, nor the game) - even if you're just unsure. Wait till the hype dies out and people judge the game with clear mind. There is no need for this early ferocity - there will be a lot of place for that after the game proves to be disaster, if it does.

I understand that there also is the will to try and move the game in the right direction, but this is not 1990's any more. I think there is next to zero chance to actually make a change in the major decisions they do.

Bakerman on 8/4/2013 at 21:29

Quote Posted by Thirith

I'm agnostic on parkour in Thief - but I honestly don't think it makes all that much sense to compare parkour in Mirror's Edge and Assassin's Creed.\

If this was directed at me, I'll just say I think the two games have the same objective in their implementations of parkour - make it smooth and so that you don't have to worry about the terrain beyond the basic shapes. In both, the buildings may as well be flat, featureless cubes (except for the grabby-on points in AC) for all the difference the detailing makes. Though, I should say I haven't played AC3, and some of the tree-climbing stuff in the trailers did look a bit more interesting.

Quote Posted by Kuuso

Even if parkour in itself doesn't place stress on silent movement, I would trust a parkourer to be able to do it way better than other sports.

You might be surprised - at least with the people I train with, silent movement is always an aspiration. It means you're absorbing impact into your muscles, not your bones. Especially when landing, the quieter you can make it, the better your technique and the healthier it is for your body. The goal, of course, isn't to be sneaky, but quietness is definitely a metric we use to judge ourselves.

retractingblinds on 9/4/2013 at 23:41

Quote Posted by Thirith;2178810-

Marketing will try to reach the entire potential audience of a game. The old-school fans alone won't make this game a hit. In fact, they're unlikely to be a majority of the potential audience. It would be nice if old-school fans were given the feeling that they're catered to, but in marketing terms those old-school fans are simply not that important. In the best of all possible worlds, the marketing would make us happy as much as new audiences, but I think you're expecting too much - added to which, there are many people here who will give everything coming out of Marketing a negative slant, for whatever reason. "They're giving us options? Obviously the game lacks focus - no pun intended, ha ha!"

You're not giving enough credit to good fan service. If anything that's shown to be one of, if not the most viable tactic for video game developers to rely on. Tons of games have had their success guaranteed by marketing to older fans, or refusing to make sacrifices. Look at the optimism regarding Metro Last Light, or the huge success of the STALKER series, of Dark Souls, of any of the hundreds of old school-reboot kickstarter projects. Their success is guaranteed because it's fan service. And fan service is GOOD service.

Now look at the failure of Devil May Cry: Devil May Cry. Fans destroyed that game, and it failed to meet sales expectations. Then it failed to meet the lowered expectations. Now it struggling to meet the lowest sales expectations. Dead Space 3 is another recent example, Sim City, look at how so many have been burned hard with Mass Effect 3 and The Old Republic, and how many refuse to even acknowledge Bioware any longer. These games failed because they didn't cater to the audience that was already established, and the established audience made sure to let everyone know, in this conveniently socially inter-connected world that it's going to be shit, and everything else coming out there will be something to be concerned over.

There's also been some titles, very few really, that had the fortune of hitting the mark. Deus Ex 3 for example with the leaked demo managed to strike all the right chords with the core fans who initially showed massive amounts of pessimism regarding the game. Man, remember hearing quotes from Deus Ex 3's game director that 'Deus Ex lacked memorable moments'? That pissed myself and tons of others off as fans of the original. At that point fan optimism was at a new low for that game, and because of the discussion over it, people weren't just saying 'oh these guys don't know what they're talking about, they're just deluded entitled fools! Their opinion holds no merit'. Lots of people were sharing the doubts, because they were the established fans who knew the franchise. Usually when you're an outsider to something, you listen to those who know better. This applies to yourself, if you've ever found yourself captivated by Carl Sagan's works - just as an example.

But that game was saved, of course. I unfortunately can't think of many others that smart to cater to both fans and a new audience well enough. Let's see if it happens again.

FenrisUlf on 9/4/2013 at 23:47

Quote Posted by jtr7

They can't leave Assassin's Creed junk out of Thief. They cannot let go of their nostalgia for having worked on AC titles and which sold well. Automated and guided movement is not Thief! Acrobatics isn't Garrett! 3rd-person pre-determined takedowns aren't Thief! Garrett visibly showing off isn't Thief!

No real arguments here. I do hope they make the game hard and not easy. I always did think that the game was really hard if you went all out there and exposed yourself which is as it should be. Being able to Jackie Chan everybody is kinda not the game you're right.