D'Juhn Keep on 11/9/2002 at 17:24
Greater good, Subjective? I would think that the Illuminati are after gain for themselves first and humanity second.
oates on 18/10/2002 at 23:55
If you want an idea of what humankind would be like living under Helios, check out any of Iain Banks' Culture books. The Culture is a society of humans ruled by a series of near-omniscient AIs called 'minds'. While most peopleare shallow party animals, the culture is also home of a lot of artists and philosophers.
One of the most important aspects of the Culture is that if you don't like it you can leave. Suffering, hardship and misery are maintained, so prosperity and happiness don't lose thier counterpoints or thier value.
Which leads me to something JC says to Helios before he merges, I don't remember it exactly, but it's something like 'what makes you think the decisions we make will be the right ones.'
If he was any kind of supremely intelligent being he wouldn't demand obedience for all mankind. Once his existance and rulership was established, he'd have to include a similar 'opt-out' policy where people could go to, I dunno, Australia and look after themselves if they wanted to.
You gotta remember that even though JC was a cynical and sarcastic bastard at times he had personal heroes like Sam Carter, someone who was very down to earth and humanist. JC said anything Carter said directly to heart (well, at least he did when I was playing him).
Anyway, Helios would serve exactly the purpose some people think government is supposed to: take care of the stuff we can't be bothered with while we get on with our lives.
Skilless on 24/10/2002 at 22:36
Dark Age: Just because satellite communications are gone means nothing. AM and ham radios will still work. In other words, just because some satellites are destroyed doesn't mean that physics/math stops working does it? All of us electrical engineers know how to make simple communications devices. As someone said above, it wouldn't be long before we had world-wide communications again. Also, this kind of knowledge isn't just available to a restricted number of people/regions; so, unless books have been destroyed worldwide, people could still learn even if they didn't already possess the knowledge. Essentially, the idea of a controlling class that has knowledge (like the previous Dark Age), is ridiculous simply because knowledge isn't a scarce commodity today, like it was back then, a large percentage of the population probably knows how to read, and do basic math. You would have to eliminate/assasinate all of the literate/knowledgable people and teachers/professors in order to really return to a Dark Age. And, if you didn't kill all literate people, who is going to have so much control (ala Big Brother) to prevent parents from teaching their kids how to read, if they don't even have advanced communication devices?
BTW, nuclear devices would have to have a ground delivery system, since a intercontinental delivery system would be highly inaccurate without some kind of guidance (satellite positioning?), so the Iraqis would be at a disadvantage as well. More than likely, fear of terrorism would close borders. No one in, no one out, becoming seperatists (sp?) like the US was before WWI.
Helios/Computerized God: Well, since God needs to be perfect in order to make a perfect society/government, hence, there can be no improvement, this is impossible. And anything manmade can be bettered, because we can't create anything perfect....so, someone could/would hack Helios eventually, and use its power for their own purposes. Best not to have all of our eggs in one basket. This sounds more like slavery or having the human race become like cattle. BTW, what happens when Helios eventually "wears out"? No one will be around that remembers how to "fix" it. This would have to be the worst choice if you ask me, its doomed to failure sooner-or-later, and in more than one way.
Illuminati: Power changes hands from generation to generation. This is really more like a status quo. Eventually (maybe over a millenium) another group would come into power. Remember this; no one can have power if no one listens to them. If our soldiers didn't do as they were ordered, no general would have any power. Anarchy, rebellion, revolution, whatever you want to call it, eventually any system will lose power because change is inevitable.
So, in the long and short run, the only solution in the best interest of the human race would be the Neo-Dark Age.
Skilless on 24/10/2002 at 22:49
Quote:
Originally posted by Crowley This is a rather complicated issue. For example: what is an acceptable price for freedom? Which is worse: total chaos and losing innumerable lives in exchange for total freedom, or global peace and economical prosperity without any chance to affect how you are governed and how things are run?
Okay, that was taking it a bit to the extreme. Personally I preferred the Dark Age ending but considered Tong to be rather delusional. Really, there were large centralized governments centuries before we had electronical communications! One of the reasons that democracy "works" is because we ALLOW someone to govern us. Democracy is probably a close cousin to Anarchy simply because we only do as we please. Complete freedom = no government/anarchy. Americans are always trying to get, "The most for the least", well that's because we have grown up on the idea that with this form of government we get the most freedoms for the least amount of intrusion (supposedly) from others and the government. We all (well, a majority anyway) agree by what rules to live by, and say, "OK, if no one is allowed to kill another human without just cause, like self-defense, then I'll abide by the rules too". Basically, its trust in your fellow citizens to follow this set of rules voluntarily, and if you're a good citizen, you follow them as well. Its an understanding that by following the rules agreed upon (by our elected officials) that we'll get a large degree of freedom in exchange for a small amount of self-control. Helios isn't freedom, its just control of the population to abide by the rules (forcefully?). If you aren't allowed to abide the rules with free will, but with fear (or other), then you are a slave.
VB on 27/10/2002 at 16:10
I don't think that any of the endings is really a good choice.
Helios:
Basically, this machine or AI or whatever thinks it's superior and it has some "supernatural" knowledge so it should know
what is better for mankind. It's a age old bs about God/King
Upper "crust" knowing what's good for you and what is right.
So that they can get more power, money etc.
On the other hand, no matter how smart he would be, it still doesn't have any "thruths" about this universe and there is no
"objectivity" or "impartiality" so it would just absolute rulership.
And JC joining with him; that would just make it worse. Think of
it, the whole game was about (fake) choice, that showed who you/JC are, it just underlines the whole issue.
A BAD CHOICE. Gimme something better.
Illuminati:
Women and men who have sought for power for centuries. Well-educated, good-mannered power-hungry megalomaniacs.
Best argument that they come up with is that by returning to old everybody will be happy (yeah, right). On the other hand
maybe this is how it is nowadays.
Boring ending.
Black age:
Return to nature (what a cliche), what would fundamentally change? It is a dramatic ending, but that state woudn't last for long. And besides, it's not very realistic to begin with. But let's consider it for a moment. Technology would not vanish. Tangible items would not vanish, Social structures would not collapse. The only real consequence might be that power balance might tip to some other superpower/conspiratory
movement. Society would be build fairly quickly to the state where it was before blackout (afterall, only comms collapsed,
there have much more destructive wars and other events in human history, and humans have allways rebuilt their society, even from scratch). Maybe there wouldn't be so centralized surveillance, but on the other hand maybe people themselves would ask for such because many people are stupid, and they think that surveillance and tight control is for their own good.
Silly ending.
Well that was I could come up right now
Comments?
Rolander on 5/11/2002 at 09:45
Personally, I support Helios' Ending. Dark Age and Illuminati leaves the reins of power in the hand of man, one way or another. And I've yet to see a man that is infailable (barring one exception, given my belief in Christianity, but I do not wish to bring that in any further).
IM Very Arrogant O, man's problems are created by himself. Greed, lust, hate, blah blah blah, list has no end. I myself am not spared from this judgement. We carry out actions that either hurt ourselfs and/or hurt others.
Dark Age IMO is a waste of useful technology. Illuminati means merely another set of people in power instead of MJ12, different tactics, but overal same effect.
Helios's supposedly absolute power can be seen as a total inhibitation on people's freedom, but IMO all this supposed freedom to do what they want is a bad thing if left to man cos of our infailability.
In my country, we ban food/drink consumption on public transport. Why? Probably because such action dirty the transportation enviroment. However, a lot of people flout this law brazenly, citing that they wouldn't cause a mess. If people were infailable, I would agree and believe we won't even need such a law but *sigh* ... In such situations, and many others, I fevently wish for an all-knowing all-powerful entity like Helios to actively enforce this law, and others as well.
Someone commented about the Helios ending, saying that the right person for such a merger would be the one who wouldn't want it. That automatically disqualifies Bob Page. JC? Frankly, I believed that he didn't want it for himself, because he realised the personal cost to him: "And if I do, what becomes of me?" But he looked toward the end and see what it could bring to the rest of the world, freedom from their personal failings and self-centered thinking. Bob Page and Morgan Everett including
