Where have all the immigrants gone?

JACKofTrades on 2/5/2006 at 00:14

@Dia, sorry, didn't mean to imply it was easy; I have no idea what the process entails. After reading through some stuff on the site you linked I don't really feel any wiser. The wording seems fairly vague. The gist I got was that the process takes somewhere from 6 months to a year.

So, there is no amnesty for someone who didn't prearrange their arrival here but now wants to become a citizen?

Chimpy Chompy on 2/5/2006 at 00:20

I thought the plan was to give amnesty to all illlegal immigrants who had been in the US for x number of years? Or did that fall through?

Dia on 2/5/2006 at 00:23

Sorry Jack; didn't mean to sound condescending. I'm just going by what a friend of mine went through about 8 yrs. ago when she immigrated here from Russia (through Germany 8 yrs. prior to that). I haven't read through everything on the site I referenced ( :o ) so I'm definitely no expert. I believe you can apply for asylum or something like that temporarily, but even that is a pain in the ass as well as a crapshoot from what I've heard. RBJ or one of our other 'resident' lawyers probably know more about it than I do. I just know our government makes you jump through a lot of hoops if you want to live here legally and become a citizen.

CC; I thought the amnesty thing fell through. Don't quote me on that, I just dyed my hair blond again.

Rug Burn Junky on 2/5/2006 at 00:27

It wasn't ever truly amnesty (ie. "Hey, we'll forget all about the fact that you came here illegally, we'll wave a magic wand and you can just go through the process as though that never happened.") on the table.

One of the proposals was that there would be a mechanism by which one who had entered the country illegally could pay a series of fines and other penalties, and would be allowed to go through the process in spite of the manner in which they had initially entered.

It's a somewhat pragmatic solution, but this of course doesn't play well with the more xenophobic elements, nor with the small minded law-and-order-"he-broke-the-rules-and-must-be-punished" types who can't imagine that the punishment could be anything other than "Get the hell out of my country." Those folks tend to go apeshit over the concept of "amnesty" even if it involves other penalties making it more onerous.

mopgoblin on 2/5/2006 at 01:18

Quote Posted by theBlackman

To be a little extreme: If someone robs the collective your home or steals your car you get upset and want them punished.

If some jerk engages in internet theft, or Warez, you get upset.

But if someone sneaks into your country, steals education from your children, or children to be, drives up the medical costs to you, increases the need for prisons, and the money to run them, increases the need for public safety personnel, and at the same time decreases the monies available for the fire and police (there are many other things that could be included in this list), you are happy to allow them to stay and live on your largesse.

You're comparing three rather different things there. Presumably it took some sort of work to get your home/car/stuff, or to create the works that were infringed or the internet that was stolen. Being born in a specific country isn't the result of your own effort, it's pure luck. It might be a fair point if you're a legal immigrant to the country as a result of hard work, though.

fett on 2/5/2006 at 01:38

Quote:

Some people aren't as educated as what we are paz. They might say "poofs" instead of "gays", or "darkies" instead of the proper term which is "coloureds".

Go fuck your xenophobic strawman in the ass. You know what I meant and so does anyone else who lives here. CNN and every other fucking news source in the country uses the term 'illegal aliens' or 'illegal immigrants' repeatedly and you don't think shit about it. WHAT THE FUCK? :mad:

theBlackman on 2/5/2006 at 02:24

Quote Posted by mopgoblin

You are ignoring the fact that you are paying for them to stay. You earned the money you give the government, city, state, or federal, to maintain your safety, schools and other infrastructure. The monies you should be receiving benefit from are paying for these people to stay and feed at your table.

It's the same thing. Objectively they are stealing from you.

For purposes of discussion.

You have a school in your neighborhood that your child attends. It costs the district $12,000 per year for each child.
The school has district has 3000 students for a total cost of $36,000,00. There are not enough text books for the students. The buildings are in disrepair. There are 20 plus kids per room. 15% of these students ( a median number in some areas), are illegally in the country, not native born. They were smuggled in by relatives, who are themselves not legally in the country.

15% of $36,000,000 is $5,400,000. This is money that should have been spent maintaining the district and educating the child who is legally entitled to the services.

And, possible old hat:

Subject: Special Day
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006

Most people don't know that back in 1912,
Hellmann's mayonnaise was manufactured in England.
In fact, the Titanic was carrying 12,000 jars of the
condiment scheduled for delivery in Vera Cruz, Mexico,
which was to be the next port of call for the
great ship after its stop in New York.

This would have been the largest single shipment
delivered to Mexico. But as we know, the great ship did
not make it to New York.

The ship hit an iceberg and sank, and the cargo was forever
lost.

The people of Mexico, who were crazy about mayonnaise, and
were eagerly awaiting its delivery, were disconsolate at the
loss. Their anguish was so great, that they declared a
National Day of Mourning, which they still observe to this
day.

The National Day of Mourning occurs each year on May
5th and is known, of course, as "Sinko de Mayo".

WHAT?? You expected something educational from me?

JACKofTrades on 2/5/2006 at 02:31

Some sort of amnesty program would seem like a reasonable solution to me. If someone really wants to be here and is willing to undergo the naturalization process and isn't engaging in criminal activity (well, outside the illegal immigration, obviously) why not allow them citizenship? Am I just being naive? If amnesty were granted, would the immigration offices be overwhelmed with applications? I, admittedly, don't have any solutions. Just questions. ;)

mopgoblin on 2/5/2006 at 03:55

Quote Posted by theBlackman

You seem to be assuming they wouldn't be working and paying taxes if they were in your situation, though. It's not their fault they were born in a country where they don't have the oppertunities you have. If something as important as access to education is limited to specific people on a basis other than merit or need, circumventing that limit is not stealing, because the limit is unfair. If someone is prevented from working by some disability (and therefore isn't paying taxes to support the school system), no one accuses them of stealing when they send their kids to school.

theBlackman on 2/5/2006 at 04:16

Quote Posted by mopgoblin

You seem to be assuming they wouldn't be working and paying taxes if they were in your situation, though. [..].

I make no such assumption. In none of my posts did I hint at that. You are perhaps revealing your own thoughts.

Quote Posted by mopgoblin

It's not their fault they were born in a country where they don't have the oppertunities you have. If something as important as access to education is limited to specific people on a basis other than merit or need, circumventing that limit is not stealing, because the limit is unfair..

True to a degree, but it is stealing. From your children, my neighbors children and the community at large. And it's not the responsibility of me, or the US to provide education to those whose own country is not providing it. If they want to use the system then be part of it. Join the ranks of those (like my great-grandparents, and grandmother; immigrants all), who entered the country with the intent to become citizens. Come in legally, learn the laws, the language, and obtain citizenship as the law requires.

Quote Posted by mopgoblin

If someone is prevented from working by some disability (and therefore isn't paying taxes to support the school system), no one accuses them of stealing when they send their kids to school.

Not a even a close comparison. In the first place a handicapped person, as a legal member of the society is provided for by that society in many cases. The operative here is LEGAL MEMBER. Charity, government programs, (for which I and you pay) are for that purpose. We are allowing such persons the PRIVILEDGE (not a right) to partake of the programs.

The only right you, and the border-jumpers are entitled to is the right to pursue. Not the right to take. You earn it or you do without. You have no "Right" to food, clothing, education or shelter. You have the "right" to attempt to acquire these by legal and accepted means, but you have no "right" to have them given you.

You have the "right" to expect fair and equitable treatment from society under the law. And the law protects your rights.

But receiving fair and equitable treatment from your friends and from your neighbors is a priviledge that is extended to you by them. Expectation is your "right". Receiving what you pursue is not.