Ziemanskye on 24/1/2007 at 21:50
Or a secret-squirrel in disguise :eek:
Pyrian on 24/1/2007 at 23:35
In DX there was generally a trade-off: for a given door, it takes 3 lockpicks or one rocket. I've got "only" 20 lockpicks and 18 rockets. Boom!
It might've benefited from adaptive difficulty. :ebil:
Jashin on 25/1/2007 at 06:00
Well, hording is basically to collect with the intention of never using, or for using against some imaginary killer boss that never comes (or door in this case ... which sounds weird :p). You could call it a pack-ratting playstyle? I do accumulate 20 multitool/lockpicks in DX when I know I won't upgrade these skills, but when I do use them it's 8 of them at once.
We can argue the execution which is arbitrary, but I think limitation in itself is a good thing.
Quote Posted by Silkworm
And no, exploration is not its own reward; if that were true, I would just load up empty maps with noclip and just fly around through walls and trees taking screenshots.
That's the difference b/w thief and DX. The collectibles in Thief are to reinforce exploration, but in DX exploration is purely for fun. You don't really need to collect even half of the stuff in order to advance. You explore to learn more about the world itself.
Not sure what you mean by clipping through maps as exploration though.
Quote:
Games are about meaningful choices, consequences and rewards.
Very rarely they are all these things. DX is one, obviously.
ilweran on 25/1/2007 at 10:05
Quote Posted by Ziemanskye
Or a secret-squirrel in disguise :eek:
lol, that would explain a lot :cheeky:
Ziemanskye on 25/1/2007 at 10:29
Quote Posted by Jashin
...You explore to learn more about the world itself...
Which is another way of saying you aren't exploring just for the sake of exploring. Insanely few of the exploratory options in DX gave you any more info about the world (not helped by the fact the bank codes were kind of genereic and the newspapers so common), and more had Greasels or other enemies down them than NPCs with explanatory notes and barks or other purpose.
And the collectibles in Thief are largely there to satisfy an objective. You only *need* to find say 60% of the loot, but that just means that by having more they don't require you to meticulously explore the game, but it becomes a second-order reward when you can buy more than baseline toys for the next level though your dilligence. It's almost the same arguement with anything else you might be carrying whch just mysteriously disappears between levels though.
Oh, and as for the noclipping through maps, he means to cheat and literally just go explore, without having to actually take the corridors or anything, just floating about and seeing what can be seen without any complication such as actually playing the game or having to deal with NPCs to get in the way.
heywood on 25/1/2007 at 14:39
Ziemanskye,
Basically, you're asking for unlimited inventory, which would detract from the realism and gameplay. JC's carrying capacity is already incredibly big - too big IMHO. I think less inventory capacity might have made for a better game because it would have meant more hard choices and more incentive to explore when you need to find a certain item.
But, if you feel you must carry lots of lockpicks or multitools, the way it should be done is to start filling another empty inventory slot after you've stacked the maximum number of items in the first. I would say something like 10 lockpicks per slot, then if you want to carry 40 lockpicks, fine, it will just take up 4 slots.
Ziemanskye on 25/1/2007 at 15:33
I'm not asking for an unlimited inventory at all.
I'm asking there not be that arbitrary limitation - I'd be quite happy if we could only hold say 5 or 10 per "box" on the inventory sheet but you could have as many boxes as you wanted of them: at least then it's a personal choice if you pick it up once you've filled a box, rather than a forced "No, you can't".
The PS2 version had a better system of inventory as far as I'm concerned anyway - not having to rearrange spaces made it a lot quicker to use, and it got in the way of the rest of the game less than the PC versions did. And it unarguably only let you carry three guns (but was more lenient about pretty much everything else), so the most meaningful inventory space choice was better enforced there without slowing everything else down.
Pyrian on 25/1/2007 at 20:24
Quote Posted by Ziemanskye
I'm asking there not be that arbitrary limitation - I'd be quite happy if we could only hold say 5 or 10 per "box" on the inventory sheet but you could have as many boxes as you wanted of them: at least then it's a personal choice if you pick it up once you've filled a box, rather than a forced "No, you can't".
Well, DX2 did that. All fixed, right? :D Heh, no, I agree, that's a better solution, I just can't bring myself to think it's a big deal in DX1. If anything, the limit got me to actually USE lockpicks (I was fond of the "less subtle" approach).
Jashin on 26/1/2007 at 07:10
In Deus Ex exploration is to find alternative solutions to a problem (items, routes, etc.) which I think is very informational and rewarding. You were right on when saying that exploration should yield something, object or otherwise. In the case of alternate routes, I think that makes it its own reward.
Quote Posted by Ziemanskye
Which is another way of saying you aren't exploring just for the sake of exploring. Insanely few of the exploratory options in DX gave you any more info about the world (not helped by the fact the bank codes were kind of genereic and the newspapers so common), and more had Greasels or other enemies down them than NPCs with explanatory notes and barks or other purpose.
Ziemanskye on 26/1/2007 at 11:04
Oh yeah, alternative routes are good rewards as far as I'm concerned. Not going to argue with that.
