What overturning Roe v. Wade could mean for birth control access, maternal care

Tocky on 31/5/2022 at 00:28

Good point. The fetus mimics the evolutionary path of man from single cell through fish to a mankind shape, however small. But I agree more testing should be done. Of course to do so would no doubt make lifers shit their pants. And the results would need to be peer reviewed. And of course mere lower brain stem activity hardly separates man from animal. It's the upper function that does. I wonder how similar to a sleeping adults it was. Peer reviewed study and an honesty about what makes us human would go a long way to convincing me as to when.

Draxil on 31/5/2022 at 03:47

Quote Posted by Phatose

Do you extend personhood to any animal with measurable EEG activity?

I don't extend personhood to any animal with measurable EEG activity except those belonging to homo sapiens. I extend personhood far earlier than measurable EEG activity, also. Tocky seemed to posit that it was brain activity that made a human being a person, and used brain death and disconnecting life support as the equivalent of abortion.

Quote:

Recapitulation theory was discarded nearly a hundred years ago; no embryologist believes it to be true, despite the persistent claim seen in media and some school text books. No, developing human beings don't progress through evolutionary stages of other species.

We weren't talking about separating man from animal. Lower brain stem activity doesn't separate main from animal. Lower brain stem activity separates a living man from a brain dead one. A fetal brain is in a perpetual state of development, one that doesn't completely stop until many years after birth. The brain triples in weight from birth to the age of 2, and doesn't get to adult weight until about the age of 7. Neonates are incapable of rational thought, incapable of memory at all before the age of about 5 months. If the ability to reason is what makes a human a person, then there is nothing wrong with infanticide, pedicide, or geriatricide. That's logic.

Up until the late 1980's, it was thought that neonates weren't developed enough to feel pain; procedures and surgeries were routinely performed without analgesia. More recently, it was thought that the development of the cerebral cortex was necessary to experience pain; the cortex forms at around 24 weeks. Now it is thought that the role of the cortex in experiencing pain is not as critical as once thought, and that a 12 week old fetus has the necessary anatomy to feel pain. Abortion is never performed with fetal anesthesia or analgesia. At around the same stage of development that an abortionist might be ripping apart a fetus with forceps, across town there's an intrauterine fetal surgery going on to correct spinal bifida--with fetal anesthesia and analgesia.

Executions are routinely postponed due to the possibility that the executed person may feel pain before dying. No such concern is shown for a developing human.

Pyrian on 31/5/2022 at 04:28

Quote Posted by Tocky

Peer reviewed study and an honesty about what makes us human would go a long way to convincing me as to when.

Dude it's like 2-3 years old or so. And kinda obviously, at that. We call a helpless mewling newborn a "person" for convenience, historical precedent, and yes, religious texts (bible says it's from their earliest breaths), but honestly, that cutoff is being really generous, to put it mildly.

Tocky on 31/5/2022 at 04:44

Quote Posted by Draxil

Hence why I said mimics. And you don't seem to understand evolution if you think in terms of our past being "other species". Those species WERE us. We derived from them.

Quote Posted by Draxil

We weren't talking about separating man from animal. Lower brain stem activity doesn't separate main from animal. Lower brain stem activity separates a living man from a brain dead one. A fetal brain is in a perpetual state of development, one that doesn't completely stop until many years after birth. The brain triples in weight from birth to the age of 2, and doesn't get to adult weight until about the age of 7. Neonates are incapable of rational thought, incapable of memory at all before the age of about 5 months. If the ability to reason is what makes a human a person, then there is nothing wrong with infanticide, pedicide, or geriatricide. That's logic.

No it isn't. We are looking for the start of upper brain function and not the end of it. I am anyway. The beginning of being human and not the end. Preferably the end of brain development does not happen till we die.

Quote Posted by Draxil

Up until the late 1980's, it was thought that neonates weren't developed enough to feel pain; procedures and surgeries were routinely performed without analgesia. More recently, it was thought that the development of the cerebral cortex was necessary to experience pain; the cortex forms at around 24 weeks. Now it is thought that the role of the cortex in experiencing pain is not as critical as once thought, and that a 12 week old fetus has the necessary anatomy to feel pain. Abortion is never performed with fetal anesthesia or analgesia. At around the same stage of development that an abortionist might be ripping apart a fetus with forceps, across town there's an intrauterine fetal surgery going on to correct spinal bifida--with fetal anesthesia and analgesia.

Executions are routinely postponed due to the possibility that the executed person may feel pain before dying. No such concern is shown for a developing human.

12 weeks is still three months. And "it is thought that" has no scientific reasoning behind it. Actual studies would help. You are still leaning heavily on emotional triggers. I'm sure fish and fowl feel pain when we kill them as well but we do it. What makes our brains when they are less developed and capable of feeling but not processing pain as a learning experience greater than animals who are capable by the time of their death at our hands a more special thing? These are all hard things to rectify given our current behavior. And the very ones calling for the preservation of unwanted pregnancy are the ones who howl for executions. I also don't feel that those who take life deserve it but they are human. None of this finds when they become so.

At any rate this is all speculation by men who do not have to carry the burden of pregnancy. If you don't feel at least a little uncomfortable dictating for them then Attwood is not far off in her assessment of society or men.

Draxil on 3/6/2022 at 21:59

Quote Posted by Tocky

Hence why I said mimics. And you don't seem to understand evolution if you think in terms of our past being "other species". Those species WERE us. We derived from them.

No it isn't. We are looking for the start of upper brain function and not the end of it. I am anyway. The beginning of being human and not the end. Preferably the end of brain development does not happen till we die.

12 weeks is still three months. And "it is thought that" has no scientific reasoning behind it. Actual studies would help. You are still leaning heavily on emotional triggers. I'm sure fish and fowl feel pain when we kill them as well but we do it. What makes our brains when they are less developed and capable of feeling but not processing pain as a learning experience greater than animals who are capable by the time of their death at our hands a more special thing? These are all hard things to rectify given our current behavior. And the very ones calling for the preservation of unwanted pregnancy are the ones who howl for executions. I also don't feel that those who take life deserve it but they are human. None of this finds when they become so.

At any rate this is all speculation by men who do not have to carry the burden of pregnancy. If you don't feel at least a little uncomfortable dictating for them then Attwood is not far off in her assessment of society or men.

I can provide links to studies if you want them, there are multiple; I was only able to access a few through my University's credentials, though. But then you would argue about what counts as "higher brain function"--does speech, however limited, count? Does recognition and memory of faces, voices, or music? One very interesting study was of children born anencephalic or hydracephalic, who had no parietal or occipital lobes, and lacked at least portions of the temporal lobe, and yet were still able to to see, speak to an extent, recognize voices and music, and had the ability to be comforted by touch or sound. They displayed memory function. Is that "higher brain function"? There brains were less developed than fetal brains.

I realize, though, that the fundamental difference in our views is philosophical and unlikely to be resolved by further conversation. I take an existential and morally absolutist view of personhood--every human being (every member of homo sapiens, which includes ever fetus at any stage of development) is a person. You're comfortable excluding members of the human species from personhood and its attendant rights and obligations. I don't like that, at all. It was done with slavery, with mass murder, with genocide; the difference between the pro-choice stance and those of past (and current) tyrants is one of degree. The pro-choice criteria for exclusion is stage of development, though most pro-choice advocates are not even concrete on when that is, while others' might be race or gender.

I suspect that the reason no one, yourself included, has been willing to definitively state their view on when a fetus is a person deserving of rights is because they (you) realize the cognitive dissonance between your stated beliefs and actual views. What makes one six month old fetus a baby whose birth is to be anticipated and celebrated and another a burden to be disposed of?-- desire of the mother. If your view of personhood is correct then who is to say that others' views are wrong? The whims of society, which can be swayed by politics, economy, and demagoguery? You can't logically apply relativity to morals while still maintaining moral absolutes such as "forcing women to keep their pregnancies is slavery!" Supporting evil is easier to do when you can tell yourself that you're doing it for a good reason--for greater equality, greater liberty, greater opportunity, greater financial success, for the good of others etc. The best, of course, is that you're ending a life for its own good.

Tocky on 4/6/2022 at 00:44

No. Just no. You have gone off into emotional tirade. I thought I had made myself clear. To me it is a developing fetus. It isn't a developed human until a certain point and that being brain function. I hope you feel better after that outburst. It didn't change my views. My morals are fine. Nobody is going to change those. I may be flexible on when the development occurs enough to call it human because the time period itself may not even be the same from embryo to embryo but there is nothing wrong with either my reasoning or morals. There is nothing relative about those. I resent the implication there is. Part of the problem of absolutism is that it does not take into account facts. It draws a line right or wrong and cuts. Well people get hurt in that cutting. Women in this case. Is it too much to ask for more scientific definition before the cutting?

You put a lot of words in my mouth. You think you know what is in my head. I resent that. Particularly when you get it wrong. But you are correct in that this is unlikely to be resolved through further discussion so I am done. I'm not likely to get you to consider that even the dividing cells shortly after fertilization are not anything that can be called human it seems. And I confess I'm not likely to believe a fetus can recognize faces, voices, and music, much less speak before a six month period in most cases. Facts and not cognitive leaps over chasms would go a long way but there is none of that so far.

And if I have the cognitive ability of a fetus in my old age you would be doing me the greatest of favors if you would end me. I would absolutely consider that for my own good.

Nicker on 4/6/2022 at 15:35

Quote:

...-- desire of the mother.

Exactly. And unless you are the mother in question, what she does with her body is none of your business.

And please don't wave your credentials in Com Chat unless they are relevant to your argument.

Thor on 4/6/2022 at 19:47

Quote Posted by Dia

My friends, come weep with me and all our sisters in this country. (https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Wellness/experts-warn-health-economic-impacts-women-roe-wade/story?id=84508813)

I'm surprised this subject hasn't been broached yet, honestly. The day news of the leak that the SCOTUS was poised to overturn Roe vs Wade was released, I have to say I was dumbfounded. How could we, as a nation, have come so far in recognizing and establishing women's rights, only to turn around & almost overnight see those rights on the verge of being totally destroyed?? You see, it's not just about banning abortions, it's also about the implications of all our other rights being abolished; rights that the far-right wingnuts don't like and will do their best to abolish next. That should be obvious. The far-right misogynists are taking away women's rights to bodily autonomy and the right to safe reproductive healthcare. Sure, just overturning Roe vs Wade doesn't mean that abortions will be federally banned (but they're already working on that, too, don't kid yourself); the SCOTUS is opening a can of worms enabling each state to pass abortion bans with NO exceptions, like here in Wisconsin. Our POS GOP-dominated state legislature has already issued a statement wherein the 1849 ban on abortions would go back into effect in Wisconsin 'if' Roe vs Wade was overturned by the SCOTUS. 1849. When a woman's highest goal, as dictated by a patriarchal-dominated society, was to become a wife and ~~broodmare~~, erm, mother. The four Republicans running against our Gov. Tony Evers (may God bless him and his progeny) are all anti-abortion, with NO exceptions for victims of rape, incest, or for women whose lives are in jeopardy because of their pregnancies. No. Exceptions. And the misogynists who advocate for an absolute ban on abortions don't see the irony of claiming they're 'Pro-Life' while they're sentencing women to die from their pregnancies. I think we've all heard how certain states have been busy these past few years trying to circumvent Roe vs Wade by banning abortions after so many weeks (commonly before a woman knows she's even pregnant) and it seems as though those far-right Pro-Forced Birthers just aren't satisfied with the total banning of all abortions in their respective states, either.

'NEW ORLEANS (AP) — The sponsor of a bill that would have subjected Louisiana women to murder charges for having abortions abruptly pulled the proposal from debate Thursday night after House members voted 65-26 to totally revamp the legislation, eliminating the criminal penalties.

The controversial bill would have ventured farther against abortion than lawmakers’ efforts in any other state. It would have made women who end their pregnancies subject to criminal homicide prosecutions.'* (https://www.yahoo.com/news/louisiana-debates-murder-charge-women-053041484.html) *The sponsor isn't done yet; he still thinks women should be summarily executed if they have abortions, all politician double-speak aside. Nuthin' like Pro-Life values. omg

'Brittney Poolaw was just about four months pregnant when she lost her baby in the hospital in January 2020.

This October, she was convicted and sentenced to four years in prison for the first-degree manslaughter of her unborn son.' (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544)

Shit show or absolute nightmare? I say both. The far-right won't stop with banning abortions, either. There's already been talk by the GOP-dominated states wherein birth control (for women) would be either banned outright or access to birth control would be made so difficult or so expensive that too many underprivileged or low-income women wouldn't be able to gain that access. The good news is that men's Viagra will remain totally available and covered by all health insurance companies, nationwide. *please note that the last sentence is absolutely dripping with sarcasm*

(https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/birth-control-banned-roe-v-wade-overturned-legal-experts-warn-rcna28253)

(https://news.yahoo.com/mississippi-governor-wont-rule-possible-200503601.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall)

What the actual fuck is happening in our 'Land of the Free and Home of the Brave'?? Land of the Free? Yeah, right. My grandmother remembered the Women's Suffragette marches, I marched for the Women's Liberation Movement back in the 60s & 70s and now my daughter and granddaughters are going to have to fight against far-right efforts to send women's rights back to the Stone Age. Oh my very God!! And yeah, I know some of you are thinking 'Well stop bitching and get out and vote'. Kind of hard to do when the GOP-dominated state legislature keeps dropping the names of over 200,000 voters (the majority of which were found to have voted straight Democratic tickets) from the state's voter registry every two years. Been there, done that. Or the GOP in our state legislature gerrymanders on a free and regular basis. *sighs* No, I am by no means done fighting in this War Against Women. Not by a long shot. No apologies for sounding cliche or militantly feminist here, but .....
#WeWillNotGoBack #KeepYourBansOffMYUterus #OURBODIESOURCHOICE

And hold on to your butts, friends, because after the far-right is done taking away all the rights of women in this country, they'll be coming for our LGBTQ friends and minorities next. Mark my words. *sighs again* Looks like it's time to get my fightin' shoes out of the closet ...... again. *smh*

I know it's a very bad thing to wish ill on others, but I'm sure you can guess where my mind is at on the subject of the far-right misogynists in this country.

Rant far from over.

Something tells me this isn't about far-right/left villainy bs, but about personal life regrets, probably subconscious, unrealized ones at that.

rachel on 4/6/2022 at 19:55

It might shock you, but this is not an academic debate, pal. This is about real life shit that has had, still has, and will continue to have real consequences.

mopgoblin on 5/6/2022 at 09:27

If we're breaking out the amateur psychoanalysis, I'm pretty sure that if you quote a great big post to add a reply that's a twentieth of the size, it's a sign you fancy your dad