What overturning Roe v. Wade could mean for birth control access, maternal care - by Dia
uncadonego on 27/5/2022 at 02:13
Quote Posted by Draxil
Laws force people to abide by society's agreed upon values.
Only 29% of Americans polled think Roe v. Wade should be overturned. 80% of Americans show support for abortion in all or most cases.
So "society's agreed upon values" is support for Roe v. Wade.
Nicker on 27/5/2022 at 03:01
Quote:
Slavery denies all rights and treats a person like property. Pregnant women aren't treated like property--they can vote, pursue an education, work, hold office, buy and sell property, and travel freely.
Great. You can dig ditches for me until you drop dead. Then you can travel wherever you want, get an education and vote. Did I miss anything? Start digging, Champ. Also your children are belong to us!!
You don't get to tell others what do do with their own bodies. Even if you don't like what they do.
Dia on 27/5/2022 at 03:43
Quote Posted by Draxil
You are denser than a tungsten brick. Slavery denies all rights and treats a person like property. Pregnant women aren't treated like property--they can vote, pursue an education, work, hold office, buy and sell property, and travel freely.
Your outright misogyny is overwhelming. Forcing a woman to endure an unwanted pregnancy
is slavery; you are taking control of
her body and taking away her right to autonomy of her body by forcing her to bear an unwanted fetus that will become an unwanted baby. You're treating her like an object that must be controlled: you are
forcing her against her will. As far as the rest of our (women's) rights, are you aware that many Pro-Forced Birth states already have bills in the works to ban birth control in all forms (except condoms, of course; have to protect those penises, ya know)? Google it. There've already been GQP politicians questioning the 'wisdom' of 'allowing' women to vote, as well as obtain driver's licenses before the woman is 30 yrs. of age (because women are far too emotional to be rational drivers before the age of 30, in their opinion).
Oh, and btw, Cosmopolitan never held any interest for me; I've always preferred publications like Time, the Washington Post and HuffPost.
I remember when women couldn't obtain birth control pills/IUDs, etc., without their husband's or father's consent, nor could they elect to have tubal ligations without the consent of their husbands. Yeah, I lived through those awful times, Sparky, and compared to how far women have come, those times seem like a nightmare. Women know from the long, uphill battle we've fought to get the rights we have that if the far-right Talibangelicals (like yourself) take control of this country, we can say goodby to all of our hard-won rights, including the right to vote, pursue a higher education, work, hold office, buy and sell property and travel freely. That's the horrible Dark Ages we women have been fighting our way out of for the past century, the same Dark Ages those misogynists want to send us back to. But you couldn't possibly understand since your penis obviously gets in the way. We women have fought these battles before and won; we will win again. Sexist pigs and Talibangelicals be damned.
P.S. I had the misfortune to see my own miscarriage at barely 3 months gestation; it looked nothing like a 'baby', more like a bloody, foul blob of tissue, not even human (though my OB said it had been forming normally, no deformities and would've probably continued to do so if my then-husband hadn't punched me in the abdomen during a drunken rage, which led to his becoming a former husband). No way anyone could have
ever convinced me that blob was a sentient human being or a 'baby'. Seriously. So just go on your merry way and keep contributing to overpopulation and I'm sure everyone in your circle will marvel at your masculinity and admire your virility with each successive fetus your wife pushes out (don't worry, you won't feel a thing ;) ). I'm done arguing with you; it's not worth it. However, I do wish you plenty of fat, happy babies ..... who all grow up to be militant feminists.
rachel on 27/5/2022 at 07:37
Male responsibility is always strikingly absent from Draxil's (and similar) arguments. It's like these pregnancies are just created by some holy spirit to inflict upon these promiscuous women. God forbid we broach anything that affects male body autonomy. *gasp*
uncadonego on 27/5/2022 at 14:00
Quote Posted by Dia
P.S. I had the misfortune to see my own miscarriage at barely 3 months gestation; it looked nothing like a 'baby', more like a bloody, foul blob of tissue, not even human (though my OB said it had been forming normally, no deformities and would've probably continued to do so if my then-husband hadn't punched me in the abdomen during a drunken rage, which led to his becoming a former husband).
Bastard. Good on you for kicking his sorry ass to the curb Dia
lowenz on 27/5/2022 at 16:47
Quote:
At what point does a human being in early development become an individual
It's really in the noun itself.
When:
1) he/she/it can't divides in 2 or more zygotes and can't absorb other zygotes (yes, it's possible, it's NOT "horror sciencefiction")
2) he/she/it is radicated on the endometrium and alive
From this point you can start "count" it as 1.
Before this point it's not possible (or you must accept "God" or similar WANT zygotes cannibalization.....well surely an "inhuman god" can do that, just explain it as "MYSTERY OF LOVE"...... (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus_in_fetu) )
lowenz on 27/5/2022 at 16:55
Quote Posted by Renzatic
You may think me heartless, but you need to realize that I'm only advocating what's best for all of us. The tree of liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of innocent bystanders.
That's why when someone says "liberty" (by right, not the "natural condition" of freedom) I start having nightmares :D
And not so occasionally.
Tocky on 28/5/2022 at 07:11
Quote Posted by Draxil
Stoning is so last century. That's why God invented guns. "Infant" comes from the Latin verb "fari", "to speak". So do such words as defame, affable, fable, and fate. With the prefix "in-" it means "not speaking", and was used to denote children from the fetal stage through their early years. You can learn a lot of things when your preferred reading source isn't
Cosmopolitan.
I've tried to stay out of this but ancient Roman etymology as a defense of your argument? And you get it wrong? It's from BIRTH forward and not fetal stage forward. The ancient Romans hardly concerned themselves with a glob of cells. At least get it right if you are going to insult someone over reading material.
Quote Posted by Draxil
Laws prevent my doctor from grafting a chainsaw onto my arm, too, forcing me to abide by someone else's choice. SLAVERY.
Ah shit. While I'm here a couple more things. I don't think there is a law against being Ashe. Find me one. Any bionic implant is game. Most doctors won't which is not the same thing. I know you are being facetious but do try to find a logical analogy. Lot's of emotion here which often limits the amount of thought, which brings me to my next point.
Quote Posted by Draxil
Starker! The moment I saw your name I could tell what your post was going to be about. I'll happily answer your question about gun ownership (though I feel we've covered this ground a few times before) if you'll answer the as of yet unanswered question I've posed to people in this thread who support abortion: at what point during human development would you consider limiting abortion, if any, and why? Basically, when is a developing human life a person that has rights?
Since he hasn't answered, I will. Someone becomes human when they don't just have the potential to become that way but actually currently posses what makes us so and that is brain function. The ability to interact with our environment and respond in a way which denotes thought. What we are is our brain. It isn't our body. My location used to be "In this flesh and bone thing" and that is true. What is "me" is what sits atop and within that. What we are derives from our brains ability to process information. When someone is no longer able to we call them "brain dead" (great 80's horror). We disconnect life support from those people the same as an abortion. Being in the healthcare field you should know this. Moreso you should think about it. You should be able to extrapolate from the brain death example what is human. It isn't body development.
And for God's sake stop relying on the emotional triggers religion falls back on in this argument. They do not apply. They are without thought. They are from an age when lightening struck nearby and a caveman was afraid the great oogy boogy would strike him too. Use logic. Logic is the pinnacle of brain development which starts sometime in pregnancy and the point at which that happens is nowhere near just being a clump of dividing cells. You understand the reason folks call it a clump of dividing cells is because that is exactly what it is right? Please tell me you understand medicine enough to have studied some physiology.
Shit. I just wanted to post some pics of the old Tupelo museum and the amazing cars there. Now I'm too tired. You see what you make me do people? It's Friday night and I'm thinking. That's just wrong.
Draxil on 30/5/2022 at 19:37
Quote Posted by Tocky
I've tried to stay out of this but ancient Roman etymology as a defense of your argument? And you get it wrong? It's from BIRTH forward and not fetal stage forward. The ancient Romans hardly concerned themselves with a glob of cells. At least get it right if you are going to insult someone over reading material.
Ah shit. While I'm here a couple more things. I don't think there is a law against being Ashe. Find me one. Any bionic implant is game. Most doctors won't which is not the same thing. I know you are being facetious but do try to find a logical analogy. Lot's of emotion here which often limits the amount of thought, which brings me to my next point.
Since he hasn't answered, I will. Someone becomes human when they don't just have the potential to become that way but actually currently posses what makes us so and that is brain function. The ability to interact with our environment and respond in a way which denotes thought. What we are is our brain. It isn't our body. My location used to be "In this flesh and bone thing" and that is true. What is "me" is what sits atop and within that. What we are derives from our brains ability to process information. When someone is no longer able to we call them "brain dead" (great 80's horror). We disconnect life support from those people the same as an abortion. Being in the healthcare field you should know this. Moreso you should think about it. You should be able to extrapolate from the brain death example what is human. It isn't body development.
And for God's sake stop relying on the emotional triggers religion falls back on in this argument. They do not apply. They are without thought. They are from an age when lightening struck nearby and a caveman was afraid the great oogy boogy would strike him too. Use logic. Logic is the pinnacle of brain development which starts sometime in pregnancy and the point at which that happens is nowhere near just being a clump of dividing cells. You understand the reason folks call it a clump of dividing cells is because that is exactly what it is right? Please tell me you understand medicine enough to have studied some physiology.
Shit. I just wanted to post some pics of the old Tupelo museum and the amazing cars there. Now I'm too tired. You see what you make me do people? It's Friday night and I'm thinking. That's just wrong.
Demeaning remarks aside, I appreciate your willingness to actually answer the question and engage without emotional-laden appeals about "slavery", or slippery slope nonsense about how limiting abortion will lead to Margaret Atwood's fantastic dreck. By all means, let's keep this logical, statistical, and as emotionally void as possible.
I like that you use brain activity as a starting point for when a being is a person, and presumably deserving of human rights. The brain isn't extremely well understood by medicine or science. Brain death is the absence of electrical activity on an EEG, indicating complete loss of cerebral blood flow and tissue death. A brain dead person has no gag reflexes, won't react to pain, is unable to draw spontaneous breath. Lack of EEG activity is characteristic of brain death, as lack of circulation and respiration is the definition of clinical death. At brain death, a person ceases to be a person, though not a human.
Logically, then, onset of EEG activity could be viewed as the opposite of death, and the onset of personhood. In 1955 two scientists (Borkowski and Bernstine) took the fetuses of 6 women who had life saving surgeries that resulted in abortion (hysterectomy and salpingectomy). They took the fetuses straight to the lab, and inserted needles into the brain to record EEG activity. This allowed them a clear EEG without possibility of artifact related to uterine activity or fetal or maternal movement. They found clear activity that was similar to a neonate's or a sleeping adults, with fluctuations in amplitude and frequency and the presence of sleep spindles. The youngest of these fetuses was 6 weeks and 3 days developed--45 days. If similar activity were found in an adult, they would not be declared brain dead. To me, until science can prove otherwise, that should be the maximum point that abortion should be
legally considered ethical. It would decrease abortions by about 500,000 in the US. I'd love to see a complete ban, but a decrease like that would be a great starting point.
Phatose on 30/5/2022 at 22:05
Do you extend personhood to any animal with measurable EEG activity?
