What overturning Roe v. Wade could mean for birth control access, maternal care - by Dia
Dia on 13/10/2022 at 14:35
Quote Posted by Tocky
I wish Democrats had an equal issue to galvanize them to vote but EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE TOPIC AND GIVE RATIONAL THOUGHT TO FETAL DEVELOPEMENT hasn't got the same ring.
No. This isn't even about 'fetal development' or catch-phrases. This is about Republicans not only pandering to the far-right religious zealots for votes, but about the fragile male egos of those Republicans who feel threatened by intelligent, independent women. It's the first strike against our rights to bodily autonomy and safe reproductive healthcare. It was never about the 'unborn'; hell, once a fetus is born, the Republicans couldn't care less what happens to it. No, the Republicans don't really give a flying rat's ass about non-sentient, non-viable zygotes, embryos or early-term fetuses because that's not what their restrictions are about; it's an all-out war against women. That's a fact of which we women are already painfully aware. We don't need a catch-phrase to raise our awareness and in the case of trying to counter the Republicans' bullshit propaganda, a catch-phrase would only fall on deaf ears and low IQs.
When reading through comments posted after news articles about abortion, I've seen the ignorant claims repeated (usually by pro-forced birther males, go figure) about 'Oh noes, the Demonrats want to kill the babies', but I've also seen more and more responses from pro-choice people correcting those ignoramuses with the fact that there are no babies involved in abortions. So no, Democrats don't need to come up with a catchy phrase; we have the facts on our side and believe me, those facts have already galvanized women enough to cause a 70% increase in voter registration this year alone since it was leaked that the SCOTUS planned to overturn Roe vs Wade.
P.S.
If our uteruses shot bullets, there'd
never be
any restrictions on our bodily autonomy.
Tocky on 13/10/2022 at 16:02
I dare say there would be less rapes as well.
I hope you are right about the number of women voting but I fear the number of them who have turned their minds over to the Lord, those who went far beyond what any "shitlib" would ever do and scared themselves back to a non-thinking far right position. They are completely blind to their hypocrisy and totally incapable of introspection. They may not all go to MTG levels of self delusion, but they have turned their minds over to what any man in the pulpit says with a zealotry I could never have imagined.
Dia on 14/10/2022 at 15:23
God has nothing to do with my rights to bodily autonomy and safe reproductive healthcare. Religion and politics need to stay the fuck away from our uteruses. Any woman who votes Republican would be better off just standing in front of a mirror and punching herself in her own face, repeatedly.
Draxil on 16/10/2022 at 09:20
Quote Posted by Tocky
Well it is his most divisive issue. Republicans love to push the emotional button of DEMONRATS ARE FOR KILLING BABIES in stirring their base to vote rather than giving any rational thought to the topic. I wish Democrats had an equal issue to galvanize them to vote but EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE TOPIC AND GIVE RATIONAL THOUGHT TO FETAL DEVELOPEMENT hasn't got the same ring.
By all means, educate yourself on the topic. From the other thread:
Quote:
This part still bothers me because it goes to the core of the dishonesty on the right. Logically that which possesses human life is NOT human. A drop of blood, though it is a human drop of blood, is not a human. That is where I attempted to argue before. At what point does the embryo become human? What are the defining characteristics? I was trying to be honest in that discussion on another thread and at first you were too. When I saw you were falling back on dogma and putting words in my mouth I shut down any argument. I saw you were not looking for truth.
You're first statement is absolute nonsense, and your reasoning is a logical mishmash of false equivalence and reductio ad absurdum. The cell is a component part of the organism, and doesn't exist without the organism--it is living, but would be deemed cellular life. The organism is the organized and complete being that is deemed to posses human life, and it possesses that from conception. You're equating the tree and the forest.
Don't take my word, though. Since you trust science so much let's refer to one of the most popular embryology textbooks used in medical schools in the United States,
(https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Developing_Human_E_Book.html?id=OTaBDwAAQBAJ) The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology.
Quote:
Human development is a continuous process that
begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (spermatozoon) from a male to form a single-celled zygote. Cell division, cell migration, programmed cell death (apoptosis), differentiation, growth, and cell rearrangement transform the fertilized oocyte, a highly specialized, totipotent cell, the zygote, into a multicellular human being. [...]
This highly specialized, totipotent cell (capable of giving rise to any cell type) marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.Being pro-choice is a
values-based decision: the life of the developing child isn't as important as the autonomy of the mother. That's fine, but own up to it and defend that belief--the science of
what abortion is terminating, a human life, is clear.
Quote:
I hope you are right about the number of women voting but I fear the number of them who have turned their minds over to the Lord, those who went far beyond what any "shitlib" would ever do and scared themselves back to a non-thinking far right position.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say she's not right, she's just being Dia. There was widespread reporting that after the
Dobbs decision new registrations in the state of Kansas were 70% women (Kansas had an amendment on the ballot that would have removed new-found constitutional protection for abortion), and Dia is taking that number is applying it to the whole country. Only other voter registrations don't show that number. I think
Dobbs will give the Democrats a boost, but the economy and inflation are polling as the number one issue in most polls. Time will tell.
Quote:
originally posted by Dia:
Any woman who votes Republican would be better off just standing in front of a mirror and punching herself in her own face, repeatedly.
Classy! You can always be counted on to bring the vile.
Draxil on 16/10/2022 at 09:55
Quote:
Originally posted by heywood:
Knowing When Life Begins is important to religious people because they believe that's when a soul is created. It's a religious argument that nobody will ever win, and it shouldn't be germane. A religious belief that something magical happens at fertilization should not be the basis for limiting people's reproductive rights.
I find that somewhat offensive and silly. Knowing when life begins should be important to anyone of good will, because you know it's at that point that you're taking a human life if you terminate the pregnancy. That should mean something, and should not be something that is done lightly. Certainly not something done for convenience, as is the most common reason for abortion in the United States. Less than 1% are performed for reasons of rape or incest, less than 10% are done for reasons of maternal health or possible health problems for the child.
Quote:
It's all human though. The question is when, during development, should the fetus be treated as a person under the law, with rights separate from the mother? Viability is a reasonable standard for that, because it defines the point at which the fetus could potentially live outside of the womb.
I'm sure we'd all like to know at what point we become sentient and when we become self-aware, but we have no way of knowing that.
So what makes viability special? Not being facetious or snarky, I just don't understand the reasoning behind your statement. "He's not going to live long, so we can kill him" doesn't work anywhere else in the real world talking about humans, and in abortion it's more like "he's not going to live long because we're not going to give him the chance to, because he might if we did". It's like the Monty Python "Bring out your dead" scene.
Dia on 16/10/2022 at 15:12
[QUOTE=Draxil;2492653That should mean something, and should not be something that is done lightly. Why do you automatically assume that the decision to have an abortion is made callously and without plenty of forethought? You've obviously never been in that position and never will be. Your mansplaining has become tedious as well as annoying. I was tempted to respond to each one of your talking points, then remembered to whom I was responding and decided that it's a waste of time trying to use facts against a troll and an obviously misogynist male troll at that.
So I'll ask you again; how does a woman having an abortion, a woman living on the opposite side of the country whom you've never met and will never know,
directly affect
you? Helpful Hint:
IT DOESN'T. Why do you believe you should have
any input in the question of abortion legislation? (Keep religion out of this and don't claim that you keep advocating the destruction of women's rights to bodily autonomy and safe reproductive healthcare because you care
so much for non-sentient, non-viable zygotes, embryos or early-term fetuses, either. I doubt you've adopted even one of the already-born unwanted babies or children, so to claim 'but ... but my conscience .....' would be hypocritical, to say the least. Your conscience is
your problem.)
So what drives you to be such a hard-core advocate of forced birth? You do realize that forcing a woman to continue with an unwanted pregnancy against her will and forcing her to give birth to an unwanted fetus/baby are a form of slavery, right? Is that what appeals to you, then; having that type of control over women? You don't have a uterus, will never be pregnant and, again, will never have to face the personal dilemma of making a choice. I don't want to hear about how you're such a loving father and husband and how you have such beautiful children; none of that has jackshit to do with having my rights to bodily autonomy and safe reproductive healthcare taken away. I'm curious to know what the driving force is behind your relentless advocating of the destruction of women's rights. Because all I'm hearing when I read your posts is the opinion of a man who seems to believe that A.) women are wanton sluts who callously use abortions as a form of birth control, B.) women are so totally braindead that they need a man to mansplain and tell them what they can and can't do because they can't be trusted to make these decisions on their own, and C.) men are superior to women because men have penises and that gives men the right to destroy women's rights. Just curious because, for the life of me, I can't figure out why men like you seem to believe they should have
any say regarding women's rights. Not your body, not your choice, none of your business.
Draxil on 17/10/2022 at 00:28
Quote Posted by Dia
Why do you automatically assume that the decision to have an abortion is made callously and without plenty of forethought? You've obviously never been in that position and never will be. Your mansplaining has become tedious as well as annoying. I was tempted to respond to each one of your talking points, then remembered to whom I was responding and decided that it's a waste of time trying to use facts against a troll and an obviously misogynist male troll at that.
So I'll ask you again; how does a woman having an abortion, a woman living on the opposite side of the country whom you've never met and will never know,
directly affect
you? Helpful Hint:
IT DOESN'T. Why do you believe you should have
any input in the question of abortion legislation? (Keep religion out of this and don't claim that you keep advocating the destruction of women's rights to bodily autonomy and safe reproductive healthcare because you care
so much for non-sentient, non-viable zygotes, embryos or early-term fetuses, either. I doubt you've adopted even one of the already-born unwanted babies or children, so to claim 'but ... but my conscience .....' would be hypocritical, to say the least. Your conscience is
your problem.)
Since when is it necessary to have experiential knowledge to have an opinion on a topic or to know truth? How did a gunman killing a bunch of kids halfway across the country directly affect you? How does me owning an AR-15 directly affect you? What gives YOU the right, as a non-shooter, non-gun owner, non-gun-crime victim, to have an opinion on gun ownership or to support legislation limiting gun ownership? How would a bunch of white supremacists lynching a gay black man in Georgia affect YOU, and what would give you, a white heterosexual cis-woman, the right to an opinion on hate-crime laws? Can you see how idiotic that line of reasoning is?
And I have kept religion out of this--my entire line of reasoning against abortion is the blatantly obvious deduction that human development is an uninterrupted spectrum that can be traced from death all the way back to the genesis of life, and that the genesis of life in the organism we call human beings is obviously the mating of the male and female sex cells. I hold the not unreasonable view that human life should be protected, and that lines drawn at various points on the timeline of a human life at which life is worth or isn't worth protecting are entirely arbitrary.
Quote:
So what drives you to be such a hard-core advocate of forced birth? You do realize that forcing a woman to continue with an unwanted pregnancy against her will and forcing her to give birth to an unwanted fetus/baby are a form of slavery, right? Is that what appeals to you, then; having that type of control over women? You don't have a uterus, will never be pregnant and, again, will never have to face the personal dilemma of making a choice. I don't want to hear about how you're such a loving father and husband and how you have such beautiful children; none of that has jackshit to do with having my rights to bodily autonomy and safe reproductive healthcare taken away. I'm curious to know what the driving force is behind your relentless advocating of the destruction of women's rights. Because all I'm hearing when I read your posts is the opinion of a man who seems to believe that A.) women are wanton sluts who callously use abortions as a form of birth control, B.) women are so totally braindead that they need a man to mansplain and tell them what they can and can't do because they can't be trusted to make these decisions on their own, and C.) men are superior to women because men have penises and that gives men the right to destroy women's rights. Just curious because, for the life of me, I can't figure out why men like you seem to believe they should have
any say regarding women's rights. Not your body, not your choice, none of your business.
"Forced birth" must be the latest twisted euphemism that goes out in the pro-choice memos. Let's say that my wife and I have decided we are tired of being parents to our five children; they are expensive, needy, time consuming, keep us from enjoying time with our friends, time with each other, and pursuing our "best lives". We have no grounds to have them taken from us as far as the state is concerned; they are ineligible for foster care or adoption unless we abuse them or prove ourselves unfit to have them by destroying our own health and careers. So we're going to murder them, or pay the pediatrician to poison them at their next visit. Only the state forbids that and will punish us and the pediatrician if we do that--is this a form of "forced parenthood" and slavery? How about if the state was garnishing my paycheck for child support, isn't that "forced parenthood" and slavery? I know of no laws that punish a woman for procuring an abortion or performing an abortion on herself; the state laws that are against abortion go after the medical providers of abortion. What the mother chooses to do is her own choice, but neither I nor the state is obligated to sanction abortions performed by a third party.
