What overturning Roe v. Wade could mean for birth control access, maternal care

Tocky on 10/6/2022 at 03:48

If it's any consolation, him calling you a word he doesn't understand is consistent with everything else he said, so wrong it was laughable.

I think some of the assholes in the other forums alert their knuckle dragger friends to come here and smear shit every so often. I'm not sure what they get out of it. Maybe just to spread some of their world to ours.

Draxil on 11/6/2022 at 11:35

Quote:

No. Just no. You have gone off into emotional tirade. I thought I had made myself clear. To me it is a developing fetus. It isn't a developed human until a certain point and that being brain function. I hope you feel better after that outburst. It didn't change my views. My morals are fine. Nobody is going to change those. I may be flexible on when the development occurs enough to call it human because the time period itself may not even be the same from embryo to embryo but there is nothing wrong with either my reasoning or morals. There is nothing relative about those. I resent the implication there is. Part of the problem of absolutism is that it does not take into account facts. It draws a line right or wrong and cuts. Well people get hurt in that cutting. Women in this case. Is it too much to ask for more scientific definition before the cutting?

Emotional tirade? Please.

Let's step through this logically:

1) Every embryo or fetus or human starts off as a zygote. Zygotes are living--this is a fact.

2) Zygotes are human life. Again, this is a statement of fact. Embryologists define conception as the start of human life. What makes a zygote different than a cancer cell, a skin cell, a spermatozoa or an ovum is that it contains the complete genetic information and instruction to develop into a complete and mature form of the species, if nature and man allows. Analogously, a skin cell or a spermatozoa are the 1x2 lego blocks that are part of a 37 trillion piece LEGO Death Star, so spare me Monty Python's Every Sperm is Sacred. English contains different nouns for different levels of development; a "tadpole" and a "frog" are the same species. Similiarly, "man", "child", "infant", "fetus" and "embryo" are different nouns for the same creature at different stages of development. "Zygote" is the earliest of those phases, but YOU were determined at the time that your father's sperm merged with your mother's egg--your hair color, texture, and pattern, your eye color, the shape of your nose--all "set" at that time. A zygote has being, and is human. It is a human being, a member of the human species, an individual belonging to the human race, if you will.

3) And yes, it is an individual. It is genetically different than the mother that conceived it. It is treated as an individual medically in utero all the time. Rh factor mismatch between mother and child is potentially fatal to the child, and has to be treated to prevent serious injury or malformation. Drugs are categorized according to pregnancy risk, because what might be fine for the mother isn't always fine for the child. It is two persons inhabiting the same space. It is even treated as a legal entity in some areas of the law--it is perfectly legal to leave your estate to an unborn child and exclude the mother (dickish, but legal). Punching a pregnant mother and causing an abortion is treated as murder, as it should be.

4) "Person" is where we differ. "Human being" and "person" are interchangeable, in my book. All human beings are persons, all persons are human beings. All human beings deserve human rights. That's not the case for you or pro-choice advocates--for you all persons are human beings, but not all human beings are persons and so are not deserving of the most basic rights or considerations. Hence my not-inaccurate statement that it's not a matter of "whether" you draw a line depriving some human beings of rights, it's "where" you draw that line. Or "when", more accurately. Yes, that is fucked up. Yes, that has been the justification for slavery and genocide. Yes, that is the beginning of a slippery slope, and evidence supports the fact that societies are slipping down that slope more and more rapidly. Google involuntary or non-voluntary euthanasia and how common it has become in some European countries. Or Canada. I'm quaint--I still call it "murder". Google Kermit Gosnell if you're bored.

So, "what is a person?" My answer: a human being. Your answer: whatever the mother wants it to be. You support women's rights? Great. What about the 500,000 girls killed by abortion last year? Where were you when their rights were being violated?

Vae on 11/6/2022 at 11:57

Quote Posted by Draxil

1) Every embryo or fetus or human starts off as a zygote. Zygotes are living--this is a fact.

2) Zygotes are human life. Again, this is a statement of fact. Embryologists define conception as the start of human life. What makes a zygote different than a cancer cell, a skin cell, a spermatozoa or an ovum is that it contains the complete genetic information and instruction to develop into a complete and mature form of the species, if nature and man allows. Analogously, a skin cell or a spermatozoa are the 1x2 lego blocks that are part of a 37 trillion piece LEGO Death Star, so spare me Monty Python's Every Sperm is Sacred. English contains different nouns for different levels of development; a "tadpole" and a "frog" are the same species. Similiarly, "man", "child", "infant", "fetus" and "embryo" are different nouns for the same creature at different stages of development. "Zygote" is the earliest of those phases, but YOU were determined at the time that your father's sperm merged with your mother's egg--your hair color, texture, and pattern, your eye color, the shape of your nose--all "set" at that time. A zygote has being, and is human. It is a human being, a member of the human species, an individual belonging to the human race, if you will.

Yes, this is correct.

Quote:

3) And yes, it is an individual. It is genetically different than the mother that conceived it.

This is due to the combined genetic transfer from both parents....Which creates a unique entity waiting to be delivered into the world.

Nicker on 11/6/2022 at 14:30

The woman was there first. It's her body, not yours. Thus, none of your business what she does with it.

Also, stop accusing others of emotionalism when that's your schtick.

Phatose on 11/6/2022 at 15:39

Quote Posted by Draxil

2) What makes a zygote different than a cancer cell, a skin cell, a spermatozoa or an ovum is that it contains the complete genetic information and instruction to develop into a complete and mature form of the species, if nature and man allows.

This is not accurate. Every cell has a copy of our genome. Sure, a zygote contains that complete set of genetic instructions. So does every other cell in a living body. So do the still living cells of a corpse. There isn't a difference here.

Dia on 11/6/2022 at 16:16

Quote Posted by Vae

This is due to the combined genetic transfer from both parents....Which creates a unique entity waiting to be delivered into the world.

*sighs* I swear, Vae, I think I actually heard a chorus of angels singing when I read the last part of the above quote. lol *smh*

Back to the topic at hand: Is the zygote, embryo, or early-stage fetus sentient? Can it sustain itself outside the woman's body? Helpful Hint: The heart is the first organ to develop, only to provide blood to other yet-undeveloped organs, like the brain, which should answer the first two questions. While we're on the subject, is it your body?? Are your rights to autonomy of your own body being threatened?? Are you going to adopt as many of those unwanted babies as you can, unwanted babies born by the women who were forced to give birth because a bunch of misogynist Talibangelicals think it's their God-given right to exert total control over women? How does a woman's abortion, a woman who is a total stranger to you and who lives on the other side of the country, directly affect you? Does her abortion alter your life directly? Lastly, what gives you the right to dictate what women in this country can or cannot do with/to their own bodies?? Against abortion?? Then go get a fucking vasectomy, mind your own body and mind your own business. Wanna take up a real worthwhile cause? How about stricter gun control (like, say, banning sales of guns, especially semi-automatics, to people with histories of mental illness and especially to 18 yr. old angry teenagers with histories of behavioral problems) to prevent more of our already-born children from being slaughtered in their own classrooms or churches or movie theaters or shopping malls? Oh wait; those are already-born children (already 'unique entities' as you said) and anti-abortionists only care about zygotes, embryos and fetuses. Seriously.

Our foster care system is already over-taxed, you know, the foster care system where unwanted children go, only to be abused or neglected or shuffled from one uncaring foster family to the next because the foster kid had 'issues' and the foster parents didn't want to deal with that. Children from poverty-stricken families are suffering from malnutrition and illnesses/diseases the medications for which their parents can't afford, Republicans have gutted maternal healthcare, pre-natal healthcare and child healthcare, and in some states are aiming to ban all forms of birth control for women (like in Louisiana and Missouri) while making it more difficult in other states for low-income/poverty-stricken women to have access to, let alone afford said birth control. There are already far too many unwanted children in our country, yet the far right wants more and wants to claim control over women's bodies to make sure there will be more. Banning abortion will not stop abortions in this country and you're a fucking moron to think it will; women who can afford it will travel to a free, non-misogynist state to have an abortion, if they cannot afford to travel, they'll be forced to resort to the good old fashioned 'back-alley' abortions and women will be back in the Dark Ages where countless number of women died or were maimed for life due to those botched abortions. And if you're going to claim religious reasons for wanting abortions banned, here's a helpful hint: the Bible doesn't say jackshit about abortions. Like the rest of that book, everything written therein is open to individual interpretation. Interpretations usually based on the opinions of whoever's doing the interpreting.

I cannot fathom why there are so many men who are getting dangerously triggered by the subject of abortions. Seriously? It's NOT your body and unless you were stupid/careless/irresponsible enough to sire an unwanted zygote, embryo or fetus, abortions don't directly affect your life, so why taf do anti-abortion males get their jockeys in a wad the minute abortions are mentioned?? Whenever I see/hear/read another anti-abortion male ranting about the evils of abortion and rambling on with their 'facts', the first thought to cross my mind is, 'Poor baby, show us on this Ken doll where she hurt you', the second being 'Incel much?'. Not your body, not your business. Against abortion? Then don't have one. Meanwhile, anti-abortion males can console themselves with the fact that while they'll never have absolute control over women and women's bodies (women make up 51% of this country's population 68% of that 51% are Pro-Choice), men's health insurance companies will still cover the cost of Viagra. Ffs. Aaaannnnndddd ...... I just realized I'm repeating myself, so any anti-abortion males who want to rant, rave and/or ramble, do me a favor and just refer to all my previous posts. I swear, sometimes I feel as though I'm arguing with walking-erections-looking-for-a-place-to-happen. *smh*

rachel on 11/6/2022 at 19:19

Incidentally, I don't think anyone disagrees that non-voluntary euthanasia is, indeed, murder. I'm really confused as to how this whataboutism is supposed to prove. Just another spaghetto thrown on the wall in a desperate attempt to have something stick I guess...

zacharias on 11/6/2022 at 23:58

Dia, that was brilliant. Unfortunate that it will be wasted on Vae, who is a complete loon.

uncadonego on 12/6/2022 at 03:31

Quote Posted by Dia

Against abortion? Then don't have one.

Why...why... that's brilliant! Just realize that your views are internal, and not to be forced on other people?

What a concept!

Back when the good ole U.S. of A was coming into its own, the were sick of a tiny minority dictating to them, so they declared independence. Then the Supreme Court eventually realized that the minority telling the majority what to do is equally as wrong as the majority telling the minority to do, so they started ruling in favor of equality for the minority.

Balance. That was a good thing.

Now, they are going to go all the way back to the beginning, and letting the minority tell the majority what to do.

Sigh. As much as RBG tried not to die, she couldn't hold out forever....

Nicker on 12/6/2022 at 13:59

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Now, they are going to go all the way back to the beginning, and letting the minority tell the majority what to do.

Al in the name of smoll gubmint.