Starker on 20/5/2017 at 21:13
Huh? There are lots of games that don't aim for consistent worldbuilding or verisimilitude or realistic levels. Not that there's anything wrong with it. Not all games need it.
Or are you telling me Diablo wants to make you feel as if you're there in the world.
Weasel on 20/5/2017 at 21:56
Quote Posted by chk772
Um... do you know any game which
doesn't strive to make you feel like that?...
I must admit that i agree with the people arguing that it's a non-telling terminology.
I think a good example is locked doors and keys. In some games, you might pick up a key automatically by getting your body somewhere in the vicinity of it, and then any doors associated with that key automatically unlock immediately. This is intended to streamline the action and let the player focus all the time on very specific mechanics (such as killing monsters). Often, the whole point of a key is to be an excuse to make the player go in one direction and then backtrack. In an immersive sim, you're more likely to have to look directly at the key and press a button to pick it up. You might then have to find the correct key in your inventory and press a button to interact with the doorknob of an individual locked door to unlock it. Obviously, immersive sims have their own thresholds of complication, and still streamline plenty of small details, but there is more of a focus on certain small details that are meant to enhance the realism of the situation.
chk772 on 20/5/2017 at 22:06
I'm all for that. It's just that i don't think that any game developer, or designer, does NOT have immersion in mind, when he designs, or develops a game. And, of course, also Diablo strives to make you feel like you're in its game world. Or what else is it supposed to be? Something like a model railroad? Well... i figure even that has some immersive factor. :p
Frankly, what you describe as an "immersive sim" could contain such trivial things like looking down on you, and seeing your game alter ego's body, or, holding your hand before your eyes, when you picked up a game item. I fail to see how that be some deep, immersive element. Even 2d sprite games from the 90ies wanted to give you an immersive feeling, in their way possible. It's for me like saying "a game is a game". Well, yes, it is.
Weasel on 20/5/2017 at 22:14
Quote Posted by chk772
I'm all for that. It's just that i don't think that any game developer, or designer, does NOT have immersion in mind, when he designs, or develops a game. And, of course, also Diablo strives to make you feel like you're in its game world. Or what else is it supposed to be? Something like a model railroad? Well... i figure even that has some immersive factor. :p
Frankly, what you describe as an "immersive sim" could contain such trivial things like looking down on you, and seeing your game alter ego's body, or, holding your hand before your eyes, when you picked up a game item. I fail to see how that be some deep, immersive element. Even 2d sprite games from the 90ies wanted to give you an immersive feeling, in their way possible. It's for me like saying "a game is a game". Well, yes, it is.
To give a non-video game example, you could say that paintball and chess are both simulating battles. Does that mean there's no point in differentiating between the two? They're essentially the same?
I think you're getting hung up on the term "immersive sim" because of the fact that it could be stretched to apply to any game, but the term was coined in an attempt to define a narrow subset of games. Maybe a better term could have been used, but I don't know what it would be. Can you think of a different term that would satisfy you as a differentiation of the things we're talking about?
Edit: And while I am finding this discussion interesting, I think the original point of this thread was to discuss what games fall within the genre of "immersive sim" based on the loose definition on which it was coined and possibly debate the boundaries of the definition, but you seem to be debating the merit of having a definition at all.
chk772 on 20/5/2017 at 22:21
No, but i do get your point. Still, "immersive sim" seems a bit like making more out of it than there really is. Anyway.
chk772 on 20/5/2017 at 22:28
Quote Posted by Weasel
Edit: And while I am finding this discussion interesting, I think the original point of this thread was to discuss what games fall within the genre of "immersive sim" based on the loose definition on which it was coined and possibly debate the boundaries of the definition, but you seem to be debating the merit of having a definition at all.
It's just that i read page 1, and found the pure thought of the presence of games which are "immersive sims" a bit bogus-y, simply, because every bog-standard shooter gives you a lot of immersive elements, and i wouldn't at all call that an "immersive sim". I don't know how to call it. But, it's surely not more immersive than games with more trivial gameplay. That's all i want to say. It's also not a sim(ulation) at all, because it lacks a LOT of things you could actually do (or sense).
Weasel on 20/5/2017 at 22:44
Quote Posted by chk772
It's just that i read page 1, and found the pure thought of the presence of games which are "immersive sims" a bit bogus-y, simply, because every bog-standard shooter gives you a lot of immersive elements, and i wouldn't at all call that an "immersive sim". I don't know how to call it. But, it's surely not more immersive than games with more trivial gameplay. That's all i want to say. It's also not a sim(ulation) at all, because it lacks a LOT of things you could actually do (or sense).
If a shooter has added immersion because it lets you shoot anything in the world with appropriate physical reactions, that is very different from a game that lets you put your gun away (if you have one) and touch things with your (virtual) hands. Most fans of "immersive sims" would probably exclude the shooter from the classification (which is the point of defining it narrowly).
Starker on 21/5/2017 at 01:10
Immersive sims are distinguished by things like "If I knock over a bucket of water and it happens to flood a burning fireplace, does the fire get extinguished in a systemic, non-scripted way? If I get an objective, can I follow the street signs or do I have to follow a compass arrow pointing at where I need to go? Can I go everywhere that I can see or are there invisible walls in the game? Can I kill anyone that I meet or are there invincible characters with plot armor? Do places look like people actually work and live there or do they look like video game levels? Am I in control or does the game like to grab my camera or stop me from moving or otherwise take control away from me?" And so on... Immersive sims try to create a strong sense of spatial presence by using diegetic elements, making the world reactive and interactable, having self-consistent simulation systems, etc.
I'd like to know which bog-standard shooters have things like these.
Jason Moyer on 21/5/2017 at 02:25
Part of the problem is people keep getting hung up on the words "immersive" and "sim". Yes games can be immersive, and they can be sims, and they can even be both, that doesn't make them immersive sims. That's not what "immersive sim" as defined by the people who created the genre and continue to work in it means. Calling something an immersive sim because you find it immersive and a sim is like saying "Rite Of Spring" is rock and roll because it's about fucking.
Weasel on 21/5/2017 at 02:40
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
Part of the problem is people keep getting hung up on the words "immersive" and "sim". Yes games can be immersive, and they can be sims, and they can even be both, that doesn't make them immersive sims. That's not what "immersive sim" as defined by the people who created the genre and continue to work in it means. Calling something an immersive sim because you find it immersive and a sim is like saying "Rite Of Spring" is rock and roll because it's about fucking.
...and then complaining that the genre of rock and roll doesn't make sense because it includes Rite of Spring. :-P
