Sulphur on 20/5/2017 at 10:49
I fully agree that going that far is intellectual masturbation, and I've said as much in my earlier post with the MGS 5 example. What I'm after is a nice, concise way of referring to these things without having to go over what these things are in the first place. That doesn't mean that there should be a Platonic Ideal, but as far as definitions are concerned, if we've retrofitted 'genre' to encompass mechanics with fuzzy interconnections between theme, style, and motive, that kind of category classification is getting a bit too noisy. It's not about prescribing what an experience should be, it's about just organising what we've got in a slightly better fashion (IMO, of course). Separating this stuff out like Weasel mentioned seems to be a good starting point.
PigLick on 20/5/2017 at 12:58
Can we just talk about games again? Instead of a whole page about semantics.
although I do indeed like to masturbate intellectually.
Starker on 20/5/2017 at 13:01
Quote Posted by Sulphur
I don't think I said 'RPG' was a meaningless descriptor.
Abysmal did.
Quote Posted by Sulphur
I fully agree that going that far is intellectual masturbation, and I've said as much in my earlier post with the MGS 5 example. What I'm after is a nice, concise way of referring to these things without having to go over what these things are in the first place. That doesn't mean that there should be a Platonic Ideal, but as far as definitions are concerned, if we've retrofitted 'genre' to encompass mechanics with fuzzy interconnections between theme, style, and motive, that kind of category classification is getting a bit too noisy. Separating this stuff out like Weasel mentioned seems to be a good starting point.
Again, if it's classification you are after, I don't think genre is a good tool for it. Certainly, you can draw borders, but those are going to be useful for you and you alone, especially if they don't line up with how other people see the genre. Not to mention that genres change over time.
Also, some conventions are more and some are less negotiable. Portal is not going to be a first person shooter even if you technically do run around with a gun. You can't just take a game and start to check off boxes to see whether it belongs to a genre or not, you have to look at how it works within the conventions of the genre. A funny movie with romance in it is not necessarily going to be a romantic comedy.
Regarding first person, you can definitely argue that this is a tradition more than something intrinsic to the genre (like it is for first person shooters), but even so, there's a good reason for the tradition. Third person view reveals the artifice of the game, something that immersive sims aim to minimise. You are watching your character perform actions, you can swivel the camera to look around corners, NPCs interact with your character instead of you, etc.
I'm not going to say that third person view is an outright disqualifier, but I think that it makes a good case to argue that it's more of a game with immersive sim elements.
henke on 20/5/2017 at 13:10
Quote Posted by Sulphur
Also, the 451 code: nah. Didn't henke just post about Mafia 3 having it?
Indeed, it's showing up all over the place. Neon Struct, Spirits of Xanadu, Gone Home, Firewatch, Mafia 3. Doesn't say anything about whether the particular game is an immersive sim or not, it's just a message from the developer to gamers "hey, check this out. See how cool we are for having this here? And see how cool you are for noticing it? Yup, we're all PRETTY COOL. :cool:"
PigLick on 20/5/2017 at 14:18
so when is the actual game "451" coming out.
holy shit i just blew my own mind
PigLick on 20/5/2017 at 14:22
wait i am not that flexible
PigLick on 20/5/2017 at 14:23
ffs RPG is purely referencing d+d and other assorted pnp rulesets. So you have stats, levels and xp. There is nothing else. Morrowind was the last true rpg.
Pyrian on 20/5/2017 at 19:09
I think it's best to just list what major elements a game has.
Weasel on 20/5/2017 at 19:42
Quote Posted by PigLick
wait i am not that flexible
The key is going in through your nostril.
chk772 on 20/5/2017 at 21:08
Quote Posted by Starker
Immersive here doesn't mean "engaging", which nearly all games aim to be. It means the game aims to evoke a specific feeling of being there in the game world, which means the game has verisimilitude, good worldbuilding, realistic level design and so on. This is also why first person view is so crucial to the concept. An immersive sim wants you to forget that you're playing a character and convince you that you
are the character.
Um... do you know any game which
doesn't strive to make you feel like that?...
I must admit that i agree with the people arguing that it's a non-telling terminology.
