N'Al on 23/5/2017 at 06:22
Quote Posted by Sulphur
In my defense, I haven't had enough coffee yet to come up with respectable nomenclature.
Clearly, you don't need any, those suggestions are perfectly respectable as they are.
'MacGyver Twiddling Sim' it is.
Thirith on 23/5/2017 at 06:34
I am sure there are games out there that are all about twiddling MacGyver, and I'm sure some people would find those plenty immersive. :p
I have to say that I keep coming back to henke's definition on page 1, which I find pretty elegant and useful. It won't cover all games for all people, but I'm not sure we'll get a definition that does that.
N'Al on 23/5/2017 at 06:44
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Phasma on 23/5/2017 at 07:57
That definition thing is kind of complicated, like, if you think about it, there's no real Electronic Role Playing Games, all of them are too limitating to actually be real RPGs, like tabletops are. Being an RPG isn't about the numbers, stats, story, not even about options I would say, as options can't convey every possible thing imaginable, which is bound to Role Playing and that can be done in tabletop games. It's kind of funny 'cause the label "Immersive Sim" is a better description of everything we call Electronic RPGs than actaully calling those RPGs.
Malf on 23/5/2017 at 09:26
Quote Posted by Phasma
Now, why I feel the latest Zelda can be considered an Immersive Sim...
I know what you're saying, I really do, but my brain just balks at calling BotW an immersive sim. On the surface, yes, it shares a lot in common with games that have been given that label. Emergent gameplay, an open world that can be approached in any order you want, and multiple solutions to many scenarios.
But I can't regard it as an immersive sim, no matter how hard I try. And this make me think about why, which is really hard to define, but I'll try anyway.
It comes down to suspension of disbelief and world building.
At no point while paying Breath of the Wild have I forgotten that the world is built around the game's systems. The map exists for the game. when stood on top of a mountain looking down on the environment, gameplay is writ large on the terrain, with features laid out in such a fashion as to shout their purpose in defining it.
The map doesn't look like one that is lived in, but more a playground to play in. And for that reason, I am always aware, first and foremost, that BotW is a game.
Does that make sense?
Thirith on 23/5/2017 at 11:45
It makes perfect sense as far as I'm concerned, although perhaps it then also makes sense to say that it is an immersive sim but one that does certain key elements less well. What you said also applies to all Deus Ex games to some extent; there's always an element of overt design to the levels, for instance, so that vents are exactly the right size and in exactly the right place to allow you to circumvent this laser grid or that guard post. All of the various dimensions and criteria of what makes an immersive sim only make sense on a sliding scale, and the moment you include the question of where on the sliding scale a game sits, you invite arguments along the lines of "Game x isn't *enough* y to qualify as an immersive sim." "Well, it's *y* enough for me!" Better perhaps to say that it is close to an immersive sim or it is an immersive sim that is less successful with respect to this or that criterion.
(For me it's like the discussion of what is art and what isn't. I'd always exclude questions of quality from the definition, because quality is a matter of interpretation. Better to say that something is art, but it's not particularly good art for this or that reason.)
Jason Moyer on 23/5/2017 at 11:50
Every genre of every media is like that. You have core examples, and everything else kinda dances around the edges. The new Zelda is an action-adventure game with open world RPG and immersive sim elements, and who gives a shit really.
Operation Wolf is an FPS because it's first-person and you shoot stuff m i rite.
Thirith on 23/5/2017 at 11:56
Operation Wolf is a point-and-click operating system with a very limited set of functions. Obvs.
Nameless Voice on 23/5/2017 at 12:43
Are we at this again?
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
My definition would be a game that puts you into the role of a character in a simulated world. An immersive sim should feel like you are a person in that setting, able to take realistic (for the setting) actions and have logical outcomes.
Gameplay should generally come about via an interplay of the simulated game systems, rather than being pre-determined and "gamey".
A new thing that I'm thinking is a part of an immersive sim is that it has to attempt to be realistic.
That is, the graphics should be photorealistic* and not abstract, the sound physics should attempt to be realistic (if exaggerated) rather than completely unbelievable. Of course, the setting can have fantastic elements such as magic, but they still have to be internally consistent and behave in a logical and predictable fashion within the universe itself.
* Obviously something like Thief wouldn't be considered photorealistic these days, but it still attempted to look "real" with the technology that was available at the time.
Thirith on 23/5/2017 at 12:55
Except you undermine your own criterion. First you talk about realism, including visual realism, then you suddenly talk about internal consistency. If it's all about the latter, then stylised/abstract visuals should be okay, since they can be internally consistent* - or you are actually talking about realism, in which case magic should be right out, and it's not as if most sci-fi is all that far removed from magic, so that needs to go as well. As a criterion, this strikes me as lacking in internal consistency itself.
*And that's ignoring that you bring technological advances into it, which suggests that something can have looked "real" enough when it came out to be an immersive sim, yet it would have to lose that label for anyone who's only playing the games now.
