marbleman on 16/9/2018 at 13:16
Is this "What makes FMs difficult" or "What makes FMs annoying" thread?
bbb on 16/9/2018 at 20:08
-Puzzles that are hard to figure out without a PhD in applied mathematics.
-key hunts where you keep backtracking and there aware no hints to help you.
-loot requirements where you have to find every hidden piece of loot.
-overly complicated objectives
McTaffer on 17/9/2018 at 00:52
Quote Posted by fortuni
You forgot crate stacking in your poll. I hate crate stacking :mad:
Crate stacking is a fine art, sir.
downwinder on 17/9/2018 at 01:18
i am shocked to see people have a hard time with rope arrows ,"due to being able to save before jump,and the days of bouncing off rope arrow seem to be over"
and climbing with newdark is amazingly good
and sliding a barrel is way harder then stacking crates :P gort was so evil to do that in his mission "unknown treasure"
klatremus on 17/9/2018 at 04:03
Quote Posted by Brethren
Are there that many FMs that require crate stacking? I can't think of any. Doesn't seem common enough to include in a poll.
I was gonna say, I don't think I've ever run into a mission where a stack was "necessary", let alone required to fulfill an objective. It seems to be done by players who has an obscure need or interest for them, in which case they're usually good at making them.
I find some puzzles difficult. Either because I'm not very good at figuring them out (or too impatient), or because there is a lack of information given on how to solve them. Striking a balance between enough hints, yet no outright spoilers, can make or break whether a puzzle element is enjoyable to me.
Since I'm a ghoster, I also checked off well-lit areas. Patrols isn't that big of a deal as long as there is shade. Without it, well, a bigger deal then.
Taylor on 17/9/2018 at 12:54
Well I ticked a few of these options :cheeky:
However, there are many differences between these factors (and of course many of these difficulties are either nothing, or a huge problem, depending on one's playstyle)
Patrol routes hard to avoid (especially those somewhat random) and forced ghosting are things which usually makes an fm both difficult and enjoyable.
Others are depending on the playstyle and/or other factors. Loud tiles and bright areas are for example quite annoying, but in certain circumstances they can be even used to our advantage --- I'm the type of players who whacks everyone with the blackjack. Sometimes I make noise in a dark spot to attract enemies if it's easier to blackjack them this way.
But these two can pose a real difficulty, if combined with (1) each other (2) forced ghosting.
Of course everything is good if it hits a point where it makes the game hard, but we still enjoy it. Now that's the real art to be able to balance it.
This is highly true for puzzles, loothunting.
In my opinion it's great if it's difficult, but is hinted/simple enough that a person with average skills can figure it out (find it in case of loot) OR if it's merely optional --- then it's only frustrating for those who always aim 100 percent loot/secrets.
Well, I could still talk a lot about this, but it's already very long. Sorry for the long fairy-tale :cheeky:
zajazd on 17/9/2018 at 17:15
Anything too hidden is a big no, usually I don't bother and move to the next mission in my DarkLoader, and I generally don't enjoy puzzles, that is not something I look for in Thief.
StinkyKitty on 17/9/2018 at 18:37
Tough patrol routes, lit areas, and loud surfaces only work well if the player can tackle the problem from two or more angles, but when they do work well, it makes for a fun and interesting challenge. The problem I have with hidden switches/keys is that there is only one solution, which is to find it. And if it takes more than a few minutes to find, the flow of the gameplay is destroyed and is replaced with frustration. There should be nothing deviously hidden that impedes the main mission. Save it for the secrets.
scottyd on 18/9/2018 at 00:02
Key hunting is far and away overdone, having a great mission ruined by having to look every (microinch) millionth of an inch of floors or what knot, is not at all fun. It's like just sitting in a chair doing a crossword puzzle for hours. I've seen plenty of keyhunt missions where it is so lenear. or if you don't real EVERY book in the game. you lose out on hints. I'm not playing to read 4 hours of book for 1 hour of gameplay or keyhunt for hours so the developer can stretch the mission out.
Puzzles are there to streach the mission time out.
What makes a mission hard but interesting is getting though the AI. or having to ghost or no KO gaurds.. very hard. Before I knew the door ko glitch, it was way more exciting to run hide having gaurds look for you hopping they;d give up before looking in your dark corner. Don't get me wrong a few key should be needed sometimes or puzzles, but it has gone too far by some. the origininal T1 T2 had little puzzles and all action and fun. a lot of FM are like this, but I've gave up on many puzzle kuy hunts missions w zero action, too borring. everyone to their own, just my 2 cents.
scottyd on 18/9/2018 at 00:11
instead of making where a mission is so hard you have to keep relloading. A real excited way to play is DID, or" dead is dead", I've playd T2 exprt thhrough the 5th mission or so this way... when you die "you die" meaning, no reloads. except if you have to quit for the night. This style of play making the game much more exciting. A simple mission you might think was too easy, try DID.