DentonSHODAN on 16/10/2009 at 20:33
Quote Posted by D'Arcy
Are you sure about that? Sure, there might be a few more mature gamers around, but most of these are the ones who were already playing games back when SS2 came out, they just got older. A game like SS2 would most likely be successful within a niche market of older or more experienced gamers, but in general terms a commercial failure, simply because it's just too complex and complicated for today's newer generations of gamers.
The tendency of gaming is, and has been for a long time, dumbing things down, in order to appeal to the masses - that's why, for instance, you got Bioshock to be the way it is, and not the game that Levine promised us. Most of today's newer gamers would probably get fed up and give up on the game after quickly running out of ammo, or simply don't having a clue on what to do next because they wouldn't bother to pay attention to the logs and e-mails. Even SS2 was already, when compared to the original Shock, dumbed down.
You sound like a very angry person. What exactly was soooo dumbed down in BioShock?
ZylonBane on 16/10/2009 at 20:43
Quote Posted by DentonSHODAN
You sound like a very angry person. What exactly was soooo dumbed down in BioShock?
Troll: -1
D'Arcy on 17/10/2009 at 00:49
Quote Posted by DentonSHODAN
You sound like a very angry person. What exactly was soooo dumbed down in BioShock?
You sound like a very dumb person.
Go play the System Shock games, or other older games. Then you'll notice the difference. If you don't, then please return to the first paragraph of what I've just posted.
Kolya on 17/10/2009 at 23:02
Well thanks for the review, that's interesting. I explained why I think there are more mature gamers around nowadays a few posts later. Simply because more people have grown up with games.
Myagi on 19/10/2009 at 23:54
Quote Posted by swaaye
Actually, here's their SS review
heh, written by the project lead of Prey (the version that never was). Thanks, something new to add to my ss1 collection :)
DentonSHODAN on 21/10/2009 at 07:11
Quote Posted by D'Arcy
You sound like a very dumb person.
Go play the System Shock games, or other older games. Then you'll notice the difference. If you don't, then please return to the first paragraph of what I've just posted.
I've played my fair share of older shooters (have beaten System Shock 2 multiple times, have played System Shock, have beaten Deus Ex, Half-Life, etc.--all the games you guys rave about) and I still don't get why the so-called "hardcore" fanbase rags on BioShock so much. Sure, System Shock 2, for instance, does certain things better than BioShock (specifically in regards to the role-playing aspects), but BioShock does certain things better itself (atmosphere and combat, for example).
D'Arcy on 21/10/2009 at 10:35
If by 'atmosphere' you mean 'eye candy', then you're right. But I definitely don't think Bioshock manages to get a better atmosphere than SS2. SS2 scared me like hell and kept me on the edge all the time. Bioshock hardly ever managed to really scare me. It's prettier, of course, as a game made 10 years later should be, but that doesn't mean the atmosphere is better. Frankly, I think that a game like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. managed to create a more involving atmosphere than Bioshock.
As for combat, I don't know exactly what you mean when you say it is better in Bioshock. But for me, it was very repetitive. Mainly because there are always so many weapons, ammo, and supplies available that you could, if you wanted to, play through the whole game using only a pistol. This removes that part from the game where you have to plan your strategy regarding how to confront (or not) certain enemies in order to save precious ammo, or which weapon to use. Which also results in a less involving atmosphere (once again, I refer to S.T.A.L.K.E.R. where, particularly in the earlier stages of the game, the weak weapons and scarce ammo also contributes to create the tense atmosphere that I like in a game, and gets me enthralled in it).
The 'dumbed down' feeling is an immediate result of the first experiences you have in a game. In Bioshock, I get the feeling that the main concern is to make things easy for the player, caring about not getting him killed right away. In the Shock games, they don't seem to care if you die after a few seconds, killed by a maintenance bot or the first hybrid you come across. This keeps you on edge. The former gives you a sense of security that doesn't allow you to forget the fact that it's just a game. Younger gamers usually don't have the attention span or the perseverance of more experienced gamers. If they constantly get killed in the earlier stages of a game, many of them will get fed up, give up, and move on to the next game, because there are just so many games available. So game developers have a natural tendency to go with this trend, and make things easier for them. An older player will most likely persist. In the 'old days', there weren't that many games easily available to choose from, so you were stuck with what you got, no matter how hard it was (really, as a kid I don't know how I managed not to destroy my ZX Spectrum/Amiga out of frustration)
And just like you say, the RPG elements were simplified. Bioshock is not a bad game. I like it. But its replay value is very low (played through it two times), unlike the Shock games. And the main reason why the 'hardcore fanbase' got annoyed with Bioshock is because we were promised a different game. For months before the game came out, Levine advertised it as a spiritual successor of SS2, and went on about all the things that we would be able to do. Then the game came out, and many of those things were nowhere to be seen. I think that might justify the enraged reaction from the fans.
Enchantermon on 21/10/2009 at 20:50
As far as atmosphere goes, I thought Bioshock did a good job of portraying the late 50s aspect. But as far as horror goes, the System Shocks did it better. Beyond that, I'm right with you, D'Arcy.
DentonSHODAN on 21/10/2009 at 21:40
See, that's the problem. You guys confine atmosphere to "horror." System Shock 2 is arguably the SCARIER game, but I believe that BioShock (though not by much) is the more atmospheric game--both in terms of immersion and creepiness. Hell, I believe BioShock is the most atmospheric game I've ever played, with Fallout 3 and System Shock 2 right after it. I'm not on a crusade against System Shock 2; in fact, the fact that it is even that high on my list for its age is truly a testament to its impeccable design.
As for combat, I believe BioShock allows for greater approaches against enemies than System Shock 2. Not only that, but it's also a lot smoother. Switching between weapons and plasmas (which, by the way, are far more useful than psionics) is just a lot more convenient. I'm not even taking into account the ammo issue, which I agree with you, was a problem in BioShock. I'm talking about the general nature of the combat. I mean, was it not fun as hell setting up traps before taking on a Big Daddy? I would put an electric bolt here, an electric bolt there, a mine here, etc., and I would hope to destroy the Big Daddy in one seamless go. And if I succeeded, there was no more rewarding feeling. System Shock 2 just doesn't have that, and it's entirely not its fault.
However, as for your other points (D'Arcy), I now see where you're coming from. I imagine if I had played System Shock 2 prior to BioShock (which, admittedly, I did not), I probably would have felt the same as you. But I'm looking at it from a different perspective. I played them around the same time (immediately decided to try out System Shock 2 right after beating BioShock--which I beat three times, so I think its replay value is just fine), so my perspective of the issue is completely different from yours from the get-go, so arguing is probably a moot point.
In general though, I want you guys to know that I'm a huge fan of both games and usually don't care to compare the two because, for me, one does certain things better while the other does other things better. I DO, however, appreciate your reply, D'Arcy, and am delighted by the fact that it's still possible to have a discussion about this series in this day and age.
