PowerCrazy on 8/7/2002 at 06:48
I knew he was in the wrong on MANY of those posts, but i chose to stick to the argument at hand. Now, on to something BESIDES dual pistols.
Enemy reinforcements....
Yes I think that if there are TONS of alarms, going off, etc. More enemies from all over the level should arrive. Thats what an alarm is. BUT make sure, however you do the enemies, there is a MAXIMUM number. NOT INFINITE. An also whereever those enemies are coming from, make sure i can go there. I don't want two "locked" doors that enemies come out of but i can't go into. And apparently there are INFINITE enemies inside there. ARGGGHH!!!! I HATE games like that....
[Begin Rant]
Metal Gear Solid comes to mind. WTF!! Your alarm goes off and they are scrambling your radar. So you can't see the enemies. And EXCATLY ever 5 seconds, just before your "safe" again, oops, here comes another enemy. BULLSHIT! I can clear an entire map of enemies, and it BETTER stay clear. Apparently game developers, thought that infinite enemies, was "OK", or "Cool". SOF 1 + 2. HORRIBLE! Whose Idea waas it to have infinite enemies. It would seem to me that such a GROSS lapse, in ALL realism would be completely unacceptable to all players. ALL FPS (and third person shooters, actually just all shooter games) GAMES should follow a few simple rules:
1: A finite number of enemies. (there are some exceptions)
THe exceptions are: Enemy generators. THese should have a way to turn them
off, or disable them in some way. thus creating a limited number of enemies.
2: Wherever the enemies are coming from the player should be able to get to. Like
the two locked doors mentioned above SHOULD NOT EXIST, EVER!
3: If you are playing a FPS that has enemies that shoot at you and you shoot back at them, thus expending ammo, the enemies ammo should become your own. In other words you should NEVER run out of ammo. Because you are shooting enemies. Now if you're just wasting it by shooting walls or whatever, fine that your choice.
If DX2 conforms to those guidelines, it will effectively stay off my black list. Now if that ALL it does, you won't see me talking about its greatness either, but at least it won't be blacklisted.
[End Rant]
Geez i hate games like that, Metal Gear Solid, SoF 2, et al.
Picasso on 8/7/2002 at 07:58
Quote:
And what is the problem if some like their food that way? It's not like you have to eat it. To say DX isn't about customization and player freedom is simply wrong.
Heh, I completely agree. I mean really, if you were making an immersive kitchen sim, wouldn't you allow players to put chili sauce on vegetable salad? It just makes sense :)
When I talk about enemy reinforcements, then yes I certainly do mean finite amounts from logical places. In many outdoor areas (Battery Park, that naval base the Iron Cloud is parked at, etc.) this would most likely be done via a stealth helicopter. It was never really defined how, right after you speak to Stanton Dowd about the freighter in Hell's Kitchen, all these troopers just appear out of nowhere, was it?
Two other points:
Realistic Suppressor Sounds. Look at it this way, if you use realistic sounds instead of those canned Hollywood "pshew" noises, then although your average joe may not care, you'd be doing all we gun nuts a real favor. It's win-win!
Differentiate Rifle Skills. I know that the skill system is being scrapped, but I thought I'd offer it up anyhow, to see how helpful it might be. It's weird to have one skill that counts for a compact SMG-like "Assault Rifle" all the way up to a full-sized Sniper Rifle. I would have preferred completely new skill in DX1, something like "Precision Riflery", that would apply mainly to sniping, but could have some bonuses when using, say, a scoped (real) assault rifle. There should be something to show the difference between engaging multiple targets at close range with an SMG-like weapon, and laying flat on a hilltop a half-mile away with a sniper rifle and a bipod.
That's all for tonight. Time for bed.
ICEBreaker on 8/7/2002 at 14:35
Hi Picasso. The AI in DX2 will definitely be vastly improved, but I don't know if they respond to suppressive fire. The reason why I asked if suppressive fire is the main use of the dual pistol (I was the first to point out this usage) is because I don't think it would work well in the game. The concept of suppressive fire is usually implemented in a squad-based scenario. One person would provide cover while the others would flank the enemy. In the DX2 single player situation, I don't see how suppressive fire is used. I can imagine one or two scenarios but it is quite rare. Most of the time, the player stays undercover and lets others come to him. Much better options would be the use of LAMs or gas grenades, or using the cloak augmentation. Basically I can't think of many situations where one would use suppressive fire, especially with a pistol! I will now move on to the point about professionalism. Using swords to fight, or being stealthy is not unprofessional. It is not conventional for soldiers, but it is not uncommon for agents like JC. Fighting with a crowbar can be effective, but shooting with two pistols is not, hence I called it unprofessional. I also agree that having more tactical options is better, but I don't consider dual pistols as a viable tactical option.
Amorpheus, yes I agree that combat realism has less priority than game play. However I think dual pistols would completely ruin combat realism while adding not much to game play (my opinion of course). The targeting augmentation would not help with using dual pistols, and in fact might even increase the differential accuracy between using one pistol and two pistols. The targeting augmentation increases accuracy by scaling and enhancing the image of the target, similar to giving the visually impaired a pair of glasses. Since the determinant performance factor in using dual pistols is to do with the inability to aim properly as well as the mechanical difficulty involved with handling two weapons, a higher resolution of the target is irrelevant. DX2 is about player freedom within the boundaries of the game vision. Many players love magic, and using special powers would greatly add to game play. The reason why it is wrong to add it to DX2 is because it is not part of the game vision. The use of dual pistols is a borderline case, but I feel that it is not part of the game vision because it destroys combat realism as well as giving a negative connotation to the game. DX2 is meant to be unique and this is why it seems reluctant to use generic weapons. Dual pistols seems rather clichéd to me. As for the food thing, the analogy still stands. Some people like to have dual pistols in every game, just like some people like chilli sauce in everything they put in their mouth. Some people would make mods to provide the option of dual pistols, just like some people would ask a waiter to bring him chilli sauce in a French restaurant. But to require ISA to provide the option of using dual pistols is the same as asking the chief to add the chilli sauce himself.
After hearing what Captainclone and Picasso said, dual pistols isn't all bad. On maps where one is mainly dealing with organic targets with no armour in very close quarters combat, having dual pistols does mean having a greater ammo reserve with little cost to accuracy, which is a good thing. People like Picasso would be using dual pistols wisely and in the right situation, but sadly he is a minority. The majority don't use their brain and just think it is cool because it is double the firepower. The thought of seeing a screenshot of DX2 with two guns just makes me shiver. I don't want to see any similarities between DX2 and some other mindless FPS that adopted John Woo styling.
Amorpheus on 8/7/2002 at 23:53
The Targeting System was just an example - and if the description was changed a bit ("... also enhances arm muscles for greater stability..." would make perfect sense), it would work just fine.
The problem with the food analogy is that you can put ketchup on the cake yourself. Doesn't work like that with games. Of course, if food Nazis want to force people to eat it like it's made... ;)
How could it "destroy combat realism" for you if it was only an option for pistol characters, and maybe one special NPC in the whole game used it? Players without the needed skills and augmentation could still hold and fire two, but wouldn't get far with it.
You keep mentioning DX2's vision... I always associated that with player freedom - enough that dual pistols should be within the restraints of game realism.
The bit about akimbo being unprofessional is getting old, too. We get your idea. I wonder why and how a lab rat should get anywhere near being professional in your opinion, anyway. ;)
If just the thought of a screenshot with dual pistols makes you shiver, let me assure you that I'm quite sure that akimbo won't make it into DX2 for some of the reasons mentioned here. And the extra inventory handling to equip the additional pistol would probably colllide with their "vision" of streamlining it. But we'll see how that turns out... :erg:
ICEBreaker on 9/7/2002 at 07:55
Yes of course I agree that a dual pistol augmentation (mechanical alignment with biofeedback) would be realistic, seeing as I was the one who initially came up with the idea. Using dual pistols does not destroy combat realism when it is not being used as you pointed out, but it destroys the image of the game from a combat viewpoint. One could no longer claim DX2 had a realistic combat system without adding the words, "with the exception of the dual pistols". I also agree that Alex is not JC and so is not restrained by the professional attitudes which JC had. However since DX2 is a sequel to Deus Ex, I would hope that the persona of JC is carried across to Alex. I mentioned that already.
Amorpheus on 9/7/2002 at 15:22
Quote:
Originally posted by ICEBreaker One could no longer claim DX2 had a realistic combat system without adding the words, "with the exception of the dual pistols".Would not be necessary at all if akimbo is done realistically and only works efficiently when a supporting augmentation/biomod is available. :)
Dragonclaw on 9/7/2002 at 19:17
Just a quick point...
Quote:
Originally posted by ICEBreaker
- JC's inventory is realistic. Marines regularly carry an astonishing 150lbs. An engineered human can certainly carry even more. JC's inventory is much, but not realistic.
200 bottles of beer take less space than one bottle and a soda.
JC can carry a GEP, a sniper rifle, two shutguns, an assault rifle, and much more of those big stuff. Now, where does he put it? He doesn't look different whether he carries nothing or all of the mentioned. Or is that a Shrinkomatic Super-sized pocket coat?
Quote:
Originally posted by ICEBreaker - JC's stamina is astonishing but he does rest in the game whenever he is in his helicopter. He consumes soy food and drinks soda. He probably does get hot but there is no indicator to show his surface temperature. He does not trip over, get scared, stub his toe, stutter, nor drops his clip because he is well trained. Still funny. JC uses those 8 hours he has (how often? 2 times?) for all that stuff... sleeping, eating, drinking, going to the toilet, shaving (Maybe Nano-augmented agents don't grow hair), and all the other stuff. Especially interesting is the thought of a toilet on-board. Or is it like:
JC: "Hey Jock..."
Jock: "Yeah?"
JC: " You know... if there's a place to land with a bathroom nearby..."
Picasso on 9/7/2002 at 19:46
He can just pee out the door, can't he? Don't all government agents do that?
ICEBreaker on 10/7/2002 at 03:12
I didn't know JC can carry 200 bottles, that would be unrealistic or did you mean 20? I agree, the fact that multiple objects don't require more space is done for gameplay purposes and is unrealistic. However Ronald was not addressing that specific issue. He brought up the carrying capacity issue (which you repeated) which I think is fine. A marine can carry a rocket launcher and two assault rifles with no problem. JC being superhuman only has to carry an additional rifle and various knick-knacks. I don't see the weight issue as a problem at all. Don't forget that in the future, these weapons could be made of ultra light alloy which could easily reduce the weight by 1/3. The fact that we don't see him carrying the stuff is just a graphics issue. What is unrealistic is that the weight of the weapon seems to disappear as soon as he puts it away.
The game takes place over a period of about 5 nights which means he would have had to sleep 4 times in between those nights. An average person would have slept about 28 hours within that period. JC would have received a minimum of 24 hours sleep in the copter. No problem there. I don't know about you, but I fed JC food many times and he also visited the toilet every chance he got.
Dragonclaw on 10/7/2002 at 13:35
No food, no bathroom breaks. (Except breaking Maggie's bathroom :ebil: )
JC's a super-human superagent saving the world, not a member of a school trip...
Another thing about the inventory: Whether JC carries nothing, or if he carries 200 shots 10mm, 20 rockets, ...; it makes no difference.
