Amorpheus on 13/6/2002 at 18:42
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Originally posted by Dragonclaw What I'd want, would be more missions for DX, to cut it plainly.
I'm not saying it was perfect, but the chance of making it better (for me) is smaller than the chance of making it worse... Considering the imbalancements with the augs, skills and weapons, which are also unrealistic, I don't really see why... ;)
The technical part of it was awful. On Liberty Island the framerate drops noticably even on my GF2, and input lag can make the game a chore to play. This is what I'm looking forward to most to be fixed in DX2...
DX2 will be an improvement. There may be some things some people won't like, but that won't ruin the game. It can't be original anymore, but will be ultimately more polished. :)
Picasso on 13/6/2002 at 21:32
I typed out this entire post and then IE lost it... Sorry if my writing seems kinda fucked up, but this is the second time I'm doing this and I've lost a lot of patience.
Disclaimer: I do not claim to be any kind of expert on firearms, do not treat my writings as the gospel truth.
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Also, suppressing (silencing) a rifle is somewhat pointless. For a supressed weapon to be effective, the bullet must be slower the the speed of sound, else there's a sonic boom of the bullet.
I read somewhere that when the suppressor was being designed for the M4A1 assault rifle, the creators decided to not try to completely suppress the weapon (i.e. slow the bullet to subsonic speeds), but rather to leave the round supersonic and only muffle the actual gunshot. The intent was that though the 5.56 NATO rounds were still audible, it was much harder for the opposing force to track down the location of the shooter.
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It seems to me that the designers of DX1 wanted more of a submachine gun then an assault rifle. Simply looking at the design suggests this.
Yes, I do remember reading the text for the Assault Rifle in the inventory, it said something like "ideal for close-quarters combat".
I agree with you about the 10mm pistols. I think that ISA didn't want to invent their own caliber, so they tried to choose one in use nowadays which would also be in use in 2052 (remember that 9x19 and .45 ACP were created in 1902 and 1905 respectively, so an efficient caliber can last a long time). Anyway, the 10mm round was created in 1983 and seemed like the caliber of the future, and probably would have been if the .40 S&W hadn't killed it.
Personally, I think that whatever caliber is used for Pistols in DX2 there should be two types of ammo: High-Velocity (or "Hot-Load") and Subsonic. High-Velocity would correspond to +P ammo in real life, a faster, more damaging round that's supersonic. Subsonic would simply be ammo loaded with less explosive propellant, it would do less damage but make much less noise when suppressed.
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I somewhat disagree with being slowed by using a sniper rifle. While a .50 BMG rifle is definitly a monster, most "standard" calibre rifles aren't much heavier then assault rifles. A Knight's Armament SR-25 7.62x51mm NATO sniper rifle (very similar in design/appearance to an AR15/M16) used by Navy SEALs weighs only a couple pounds more then an M16A2.
Looking back at my post, I don't think I muddled up my point a bit. Rather than the size of the weapon affecting footspeed, it should more affect how quickly you can, for example, turn and aim. I mean, there's a good reason LEO's use pistols and SMG's in close-quarters battle rather than full-size assault rifles or semi-auto sniper rifles. If I'm busting into a house, I want to spin and acquire targets much more efficiently with a pistol than with that SR-25.
One final addition: I think there should be some kind of penalty for reloading. It irritates me to creep around with the stealth pistol and reload after every shot, it's so easy and you always have a full magazine ready. It's like you real quickly just slip more rounds into the magazine you already have. I liked the system in Urban Terror, where whenever you reloaded any rounds you had left were gone forever, but that was a deathmatch game whee you're constantly picking up new mags anyway, and I'm not sure how well it'd pass over to an RPG like DX2. I don't know yet, I'll think about it.
Phydeaux on 13/6/2002 at 23:52
Actually, the Knight's Armament SR-25 7.62x51mm NATO sniper rifle used by the Navy SEALs is a specific model/package varient which includes a suppresser (I'm not certain on this, but I believe the rifle used by that Chinese guy in US Marshalls with Tommy Lee Jones is the very same). Many other rifles are designed to be used with suppressers (and vice versa). Suppressed sniper rifles are an interesting niche between the need for stealth and the need for range and effectivness.
Basically, suppressing a rifle makes a loud as hell noise not quite so damn loud. It's definitly "loud", but enough to hear from intermediate distances, but not thundering, echoing bangs like a normal shot. Basically the difference between needing ear protection to prevent deafness, and not. One other benifit is that it completely alters the sound. The actual sound depends on the kind of round used, and the specific suppresser. Some sound clangy and metallic, some sound like someone hitting a punching bag, some sound like clicks. What they don't sound like is a normal gunshot. They also don't sound like what you see/hear in the movies/tv/video games (few exceptions). A suppressed blank sounds far different then a suppressed live round.
I totally agree with your point on reloading. I've always wondered just how many Glock 17 clips Gordon Freeman carried around. I imagine the standard of just adding the rounds back into the clips in video games is just a gameplay issue. While it'd be interesting to require the player to take several minutes to clean out the leftover rounds of his numerous clips to make full ones, who really wants to do this in the middle of a game? Interesting, realistic, maybe even refreshing. But boring. I like the idea of simply throwing the clips aside, losing the ammo in them. It'd demand thought on the player's part on whether he wants to conserve ammunition but risk running out in the middle of a firefight, or playing it safe but loosing ammo.
Another option, although we're getting really nitpicky here (it's fun though) would be to assume/imply that the weapons of the future can use supersonic rounds for wetwork, but slow them to subsonic when stealth is required. The infamous H&K MP5SD has ports in its barrel which reduce the speed of a normally supersonic round to subsonic (make a blow gun and put holes in the side of it and you'll see what I mean). Thus an incredible benifit to the user, he doesn't have to worry about using subsonic rounds in his shoulder weapon, and supersonic in his side arm (or subsonic in both). In fact, H&K developed prototypes of submachine guns (SMG I and II), trying to improve on the MP5. These included a ported barrel like the MP5SD, but with a valve that could open and close it. Thus, supersonic rounds could always be used; ports open to drop to subsonic when supressed, ports closed when used without suppresser or when extra power suppressed was prefered. Quite ingenious.
(In case you were wondering, yes I am one of those guys that notices the slightest errors in TV/Movies. Stuff like hearing hammers being cocked on Glocks, too many rounds fired from a clip, etc. It amazes me how many cops in the fictional media carry weapons--even Glocks--with rounds chambered. There was an article once in my college's newspaper about a 3rd grader who got grazed in the head by a round accidentally discharged when a cop dropped her weapon after letting the kids pass it around and examine it. Now, what's a cop doing passing a freaking LOADED weapon around to 3rd graders? The article made no mention of a safety, so either the weapon had no external safety--like a Glock, although they do have 3 other safetys--or the safety was off. Either way, the damn gun was LOADED. Even if we give the cop credit and she removed the clip before passing it around class, there was still a round in the chamber. If there wasn't, then she chambered the first round, then dropped it. Really makes you feel safe sending your kids to school, doesn't it?)
ICEBreaker on 14/6/2002 at 01:33
I agree completely. The AssaultGun (ZHL-UI1953) is completely underpowered in DX. Since it seems to be modelled after the M16A2/M203 or the new OICW/GL configuration, it really should have used NATO 5.56x45mm ammo with 40mm HE grenades instead of NATO 7.62x51mm ammo with 20mm HE grenades. The justification in DX for the choice of 7.62x51mm is that this ammo became ubiquitous and thus became the standard. I just wish it would not take over 5-10 shots to take down someone with 7.62 ammo in DX. Ridiculous! In real life, a guy with an M16 can take out a 5 tangos in a room with a single clip. Not so in DX where guys don't seem to get hurt with the puny assault gun.
Picasso on 14/6/2002 at 02:20
(
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories/previews/0,10869,2870152,00.html) New DX2 Preview, Q&A with Harvey Smith.
I know a few people that are refusing to look at any previews period because they don't want any of the game spoiled for them. Personally, as long as nobody divulges too much about the plot, I'm just fine. And there's a kickass (
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/screens/0,11105,528588,00.html?page=24) new screenshot. I mean really, look at that guy's face! It looks so good now, by the release date I'm betting it's gonna be beautiful.
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We've learned a lot about how to make combat more visceral. As with the first game, we track body location damage, so head shots are more lethal. We now rag-doll bodies upon death, so corpses will flip-flop all over the place, tumbling squidlike down stairs or falling and hanging limply over railings.
*drool*... that feature alone eliminates about half of my gripes with DX1.
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All the weapons in DX2 have alternate-fire modes, and we've tried to make all of these tactically interesting. For instance, you can still stick proximity mines to the wall, which plants the mine and leaves it in radius-trigger mode. (If an enemy approaches, it detonates.) But now you can also attach a prox mine to the wall in alternate-fire mode, which counts down from [a certain amount of time] before detonating.
I hope you can set the amount of time yourself. Now if only there was a remote-detonation option, then my twisted demolitionist bad side would be satiated... for now...
Plus Harvey taught me a new word... "(
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=mutable) mutable"
Anyway...
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Stuff like hearing hammers being cocked on Glocks
ARGH, yes! The most glaring example is at the very beginning of The Matrix... the even more irritating thing is that even if you didn't already know that Glocks didn't have external hammers, you can PLAINLY SEE the guns they're carrying! You're hearing all these menacing gun noises that the sound guys threw in for effect, even though the guns themselves aren't moving at all!
And then there's the model for the standard pistol in DX1. Equip it, hear the hammer... but there isn't one. This reminds me, I stated in my initial post, "I want my gun to look realistic, to behave and operate like a real gun." This includes an actual hammer cocking back when you equip the weapon. This also means that when you fire your last bullet, the slide locks back until you reload it and hit the slide release.
Another thing that occurred to me. In DX1 when you reloaded the pistol it would drop to the bottom of the screen, jiggle around a bit (the amount of time depending on your skill level and reload mods) and then come back up. Well, what if there was a more standard pistol reloading animation, like you might see in FPS's, but your skill level (or the DX2 equivelent) dictates the speed at which the animation plays? There might also be small changes in the animation itself, so that an unskilled person might fumble a bit for the magazine release, fish around for their next magazine, etc. while a skilled person would be more like dropoldmag>slideinnewmag>sliderelease>READY. This might be a bit too much work for the payoff, but I think it'd be a nice touch. You know, to really help you FEEL that you're a pistol master. This is just an example, though, of course it'd extend to the other weapons models and whatnot.
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In fact, H&K developed prototypes of submachine guns (SMG I and II), trying to improve on the MP5. These included a ported barrel like the MP5SD, but with a valve that could open and close it. Thus, supersonic rounds could always be used; ports open to drop to subsonic when supressed, ports closed when used without suppresser or when extra power suppressed was prefered. Quite ingenious.
Hmm, I do like that concept more...
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There was an article once in my college's newspaper about a 3rd grader who got grazed in the head by a round accidentally discharged when a cop dropped her weapon after letting the kids pass it around and examine it. Now, what's a cop doing passing a freaking LOADED weapon around to 3rd graders?
I read about that once, let me try to find a link...
(
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/06/philadelphia.shooting/index.html) Here.
Anyway, I've been thinking more about reloading and whatnot, and I came up with this.
In DX1 you could carry a 'pool' of 150 10mm rounds at a time. Basically the way it worked was that whenever you reloaded, bullets from this pool magically went into your pistol to refill it. The problem here is that unless you fling around huge amounts of pistol fire with reckless abandon, you really don't have to worry about running out. You tend to use the pistol ammo so sparingly, and find more almost constantly, that it's not usually a concern.
My suggestion for how it should work in DX2 is very similar to the system used in Rainbow 6, for example. First, suppose that the pistol capacity is 15 rounds. You can carry a maximum of 6 magazines (one of which is in the pistol) which reduces the total number of rounds you can carry to 90, which is still an awful lot.
Whenever you reload, if you're out of bullets completely your magazine drops to the ground and you can pick up a new one. If your magazine has at least one round left, however, it goes back onto your belt. Then, whichever magazine that you're carrying has the most rounds in it gets loaded into your pistol. Whenever you pick up a magazine (off an enemy or just laying around in the game world), the game checks to see how many rounds it's carrying and how many rounds are in your most empty magazine. If the one you find is carrying more, it replaces our most empty magazine.
This may seem a bit complicated, and although it's actually very simple, I'm going to make a very clear example out of it.
You start out with 6 full magazines, the first of which is in your pistol:
(15)-15-15-15-15-15
You have 15 rounds ready to go. Suppose you then go on to shoot a few terrorists, and you end up with 8 rounds left.
(8)-15-15-15-15-15
You reload and swap out magazines. For simplicity's sake I'm going to put them in order of how full they are. After you reload you have a full magazine.
(15)-15-15-15-15-8
You shoot a few more terrorists, and you're down to 2 rounds left:
(2)-15-15-15-15-8
You reload:
(15)-15-15-15-8-2
And it continues, with you always loading the most full magazine you're carrying whenever you reload. Shoot a bunch more terrorists:
(6)-15-15-15-8-2
Now, if you'd gotten into a huge firefight and completely emptied those four full mags, you'd load the 8-round, and then finally the 2-round. But forget about that and just reload from the 6:
(15)-15-15-8-6-2
Suppose you search the body of this terrorist you just shot, and you find a 10-round magazine. You pick it up. It's larger than your smallest mag, the 2-round, so you drop the 2-round and pick up the 10-round, and you end up:
(15)-15-15-10-8-6
I realize my explanation is kind of long and scary, but it's simple once you get used to it.
Phydeaux on 14/6/2002 at 05:01
Thanks for that link. It's the same story that was in my paper, but a different article, the one I read was much more vague. The gun was a revolver? Odd that I didn't think of that (not a whole lot of LEAs use revolvers anymore). Still, how did the gun "accidently" go off? Double action revolvers have like a 10 pound trigger pull. I guess if dropped just right...but still, what was it doing loaded in the first place?
I like that Rainbow-Six method, it make sense. Still, I wonder if it would detract from the gameplay experience. I know what you mean too; if it took more then 1-2 direct head shots to take an enemy down, I reloaded and did it again.
And what's up with the 6 shot clip? Even a Colt 1911 holds 7 rounds, and that's with a larger calibre round. A Glock 20 10mm holds 15 rounds. Also, the clip extention mods are completely stupid. Interesting gameplay point perhaps, but unnecessary, and completely unrealistic.
I always hear people praise the coolness of the gunplay in the Matrix, but from a technical standpoint, there's errors in nearly every scene. The Agents cock the hammers of their Desert Eagle .50AEs far too often and unnecessarily. The 12 gague shotguns have absolutely no kick. I especially love the part where Apoc hands a Glock to Neo, twirling it. Considering that the standard trigger pull on a Glock is around 2-3 pounds (one of the lightest of any handgun available), and the only safety that could be considered external is on the trigger itself, I would assume that twirling a Glock is a Bad Idea.
I have too much free time on my hands.
Picasso on 14/6/2002 at 06:50
(
http://www.movie-mistakes.com/film.php?filmid=808) Ha ha... You're SO right... Look at that list, it's huge!
A few hours I picked up the DX1 GOTY edition from Best Buy... um... as an investment. Hey, it was only $20! Anyway, I'm playing through again with my "stealthy intrusion pistol ninja" persona. Next time I'll probably be the "glorified policeman" (only pistols and baton) and then finally a heavy-weapons walking tank.
Bah, I'm tired... I'm sure my messages tomorrow will actually have a point...
James Graham on 17/6/2002 at 22:58
I agree totally with Phy, in DX, when you
[SPOILER]Had to fight (Damnit i forgot his name) in the Ocean Lab, i just fell back into a room and he charged blindly in, i then proceded to hack him to bits with the Dragon's Tooth.[/SPOILER]
The AI doesn't act realistically or at least smart enough. No one is that stupid, unless the guy was high off zime or something. When you can defeat a boss which is supposed to be very hard, by simply using your head ( and i do mean simply) it makes the game feel cheap. Even though I did laugh for about 10 minutes straight because he said he would kick my @$$ yet didn't do one damage.
PS.I think they are really gonna piss off some people (like me) because they decided to keep [SPOILER]Paul in the game even though you can let him die (well he told me to!)[/SPOILER] When you do the entire game one way, and find out the sequel chose to decide on a different way, it ruins the experience.
Phydeaux on 19/6/2002 at 08:02
James, you do realize that [spoiler]you can save Paul...[/spoiler]?
And anyone who can consider themselves even a slight fan of Deus Ex have completed it at least 5 times.:joke:
King Ronald on 24/6/2002 at 17:58
You guys seem to know your stuff when it comes to shootin'. I wanted to ask you a question, as I know little about guns, being from rainy old U.K. - In many games, the hero has two 9mm pistols, and can cause mass death with them.
Now, is that remotely realistic? Can you carry two pistols and shoot effectively? Does it take ages to reload? Could loads of things go wrong (I read something about rounds getting caught in the barrel........maybe that was in a SAW) - and should they be included as a weapon in Deus Ex 2?
Thank you kindly.
