King Ronald on 20/10/2002 at 16:09
So....in the sequel to Deus Ex, the team will use a thing called the "Havok Engine" to enable players to bounce tyres at shack-guards, knock crates onto robots, and basically indulge in slap-stick comedy of the kind not seen since Sam & Max. My question is: Just what difference does this make, in terms of me playing the game? I'm not looking for lists of technical benefits here; what do these new physics actually change? Can I pick up one of those trophy cup things and drop it onto a guards head, knocking him out? Can I wind an MiB by throwing a basketball at his gut? Can I pin a troopers arm against the wall with a throwing knife, so he can't use his gun? Can I throw stones at pigeons? Will it enable me to slide on wet tiles, firing at guards as I wizz along?
Just what does it let me do?
(p.s: I already know it lets stealthers knock over lights to create hideable shadows.)
Nethawk on 20/10/2002 at 16:53
I'm not trying to change you Neo, I'm simply trying to free your mind. Some of the game's rules can be bent, others can be broken. I can only show you the door - you're the one who must walk through it. :sly:
King Ronald on 21/10/2002 at 10:08
Yeah, Matrix quotes, that's original.
WHAT IS SO GOOD ABOUT THE HAVOK ENGINE????
DOES IT ACTUALLY EFFECT THE ENEMIES IN ANY WAY?
CAN YOU PUNCH WALTON SIMONS IN THE GUT?
WHAT IS THE POINT?
Benny the Guard on 21/10/2002 at 16:29
Not sure it can effect the guards in your favor (although that is an interesting idea) but I think it will effect the stealth players the most. For example, you're creeping around everyone oblivious to you. Then you bumb the table oh so gently, and you watch a small glass tip over, roll off the table and hit the ground, and everyone's eyes are now on you. Your cover broken, no weapons drawn, its all over for one Alex Denton. So it offers much mnore realism in the fact that footsteps and gun shots are not the only thing that can effect a guards attention. So if you are a shoot them all and let g-d sort them, then maybe not much except the realism part, but for us stelth players many more things to worry about (may have more of a place in Thief III)
Also I would hope that this would offer more realistic manipulation of objects. I think I read somehwere that almost all objects in the game can be manipulated, which would be great. But if you could throw this at someones head and known the bastard out that would be even better!
King Ronald on 21/10/2002 at 16:35
If they're going to up the realism quotient, then I definately think the devs NEED to animate Alex's body. I don't mean do this because you can select a female skin, I mean cos it would be ace to look down at yourself, see your limbs move and reach for objects; not just right-click on a trophy cup, and see it instantly appear hovering in front of you. That is completely stupid. If games are ever going to go further into the real world, they can start by animating their avatar.
Oh - and it would also be good as you could literaly see wether you were concealed in shadow, how badly hurt you were, and wether you could jump a gap. You could have key commands for Alex to kick, punch, throw items and grab onto ledges in mid-air (a slightly developed version of the current "mantle" command). Don't accuse me of turning this into Tomb Raider - just wait till a game lets you do it and you'll see just how ace it is. Trust me.
Hemebond on 22/10/2002 at 04:32
Quote:
Originally posted by King Ronald If they're going to up the realism quotient, then I definately think the devs NEED to animate Alex's body. I don't mean do this because you can select a female skin, I mean cos it would be ace to look down at yourself, see your limbs move and reach for objects; not just right-click on a trophy cup, and see it instantly appear hovering in front of you. That is completely stupid. If games are ever going to go further into the real world, they can start by animating their avatar.
Oh - and it would also be good as you could literaly see wether you were concealed in shadow, how badly hurt you were, and wether you could jump a gap. You could have key commands for Alex to kick, punch, throw items and grab onto ledges in mid-air (a slightly developed version of the current "mantle" command). Don't accuse me of turning this into Tomb Raider - just wait till a game lets you do it and you'll see just how ace it is. Trust me. But would any of those things really contribute to the gameplay? They're very gimmicky and they don't really help the player any more.
If you're going to have the players arm out in front of them, you need some way to control it indepentantly, otherwise it blocks the players view and gets in the way.
Showing the players body as a health monitor just doesn't work. For one, a simple health meter is the best indicator there is. Instant feedback. Would someone in real-life have to look at their own body to find out if they were shot or missing a leg?
Most of the things you've mentioned can be relayed to the player in better ways. Ways that won't encumber the player or block their view.
Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just saying... You know... So you know... k?
Chade on 22/10/2002 at 12:03
The main thing is when you stop using the players body as a visual gimmick and starting to use it to be the thing interacting with the world.
For instance, maybe you could draw a sword by looking down with your outstretched hand and using the sword. Same with anything on your belt. Or look over your shoulder and use your backpack to activate it.
The advantage to this is it is so easy to get more and more options. So instead of activating your backpack, maybe you can activate the buckles, putting the backpack into your hands, then set it on the ground, activate the opening to open it, and look around inside by like you would in the real world. But if you were in a hurry, you might just open the backpack while still on your back, and try to look around inside it while looking behind you and running forward. Or you might use the buckles on the backpack and then throw it at something.
For a different situation, if your hand lit up slightly a small area around the things it was touching, you could outstretch your hand and "feel" your way around completely dark area's.
The key point is that this sort of stores all the input options in reasonable palces in the gameworld, which makes the interface easier to use (regarding keyboard use), makes the interface much more intuitive, realistic, and gives you a lot more flexibility and more options.
But you don't get enough keys to take complete control of your body, so what you need is a sort of AI layer between your input into the game and the exact movement that your body does to make it happen.
So you say "go forward", and the game needs to say, well, I move my feet around this obstacle, and then place one here, and so forth. If this makes you do slower the normal running would, then tough luck. In real life you might be able to take more risks and run faster, but it's simply not feasible to have that much control when you are using a keyboard to input into the game.
Picasso on 23/10/2002 at 02:50
Have you seen the part in those commercials for The Transporter where the Hero™ rings the doorbell, and the Evil Henchman™ walks over to look through the peephole, and then the Hero™ runs and jumpkicks the door from the outside, causing it to break, fly inward and strike the Bad Guy™ on the head, knocking him out?
Yeah, you'd basically be able to do things like that.
Anyway, the only concern I'd have about the physics engine is that it really shouldn't be the central focus of the game, like for example the Geo-Mod system in Red Faction was. I don't really think there's much danger of that, though.
King Ronald on 24/10/2002 at 17:00
I agree. As longs the story is paramount, with maximum plot direction control firmly with the player, then all will be well. Oh - and I hope they fix that really annoying design glitch where you have to have your inventory empty enough to carry enemy gear before you can pick them up........
VB on 24/10/2002 at 22:08
Rigid body physics > bodies collapse realistically
Weapon kickback/momentum on target
Friction/acceleration on movement/objects
That would be cool!
