Frikkinjerk on 29/8/2006 at 18:16
Quote Posted by Selete
It just seems strange that someone could be both so charismatic as to start a religion, much less a religion that suddenly became the major one over the Hammers' order, and yet is so... well... strange and sick of mind.
Do you think his descent into madness was gradual, in those final years, or he just started out cracked and hid it really well?
Karras didn't start a religion; the Mechanist merely branched off from the Hammers in the same way Protestantism fell away from the Orthodoxy of Catholocism. Regarding his charisma: Hitler was extremely charismatic (made Time magazines "man of the year" in 1939). Having an affable personality and the ability to roast your perceived enemies alive have nothing to do with one another.
DarthMRN on 29/8/2006 at 20:27
He probably just had some loose gears. Simple.
Keeper Jonas on 29/8/2006 at 20:46
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Karras' madness is caused by his thirst for power. It's the desire to control people that drives everything he does - initially indirectly through scripture, and then literally, through technology.
I've always thought that Karras' mental problems began in childhood. His very obvious speech impediment would have made him a prime target for bullying, which most likely fostered a deep loathing and distrust of other people.
Ultimately Karras decided to take revenge on the entire world for the treatment he had endured. In the end it was only the intervention of another loner - Garrett - that put paid to his fiendish plan.
Nice. I especially like the idea of Karras' speech problem leading more vulgar children to under-estimate his intelligence and pick on him. Little did they know they were brushing shoulder to shoulder with a would be genocidal prophet.
jtr7 on 29/8/2006 at 20:51
What we know from the games: The nobles mocked him personally and behind his back, and they mocked the Hammer religion. He wanted to exact revenge primarily on the nobles, but was happy to wipe out all life in The City in the process.
I think it would be safe to say that his torment began in childhood because of his manner of speech. It's possible that his emotional distress became the impetus for his early experiments. His mental illness increases as the game progresses, and even his physical appearance changes (a metallic coloring of his skin, according to a Mechanist's journal), so maybe his experiments caused him to become mentally ill. Emotional illness leading to mental illness.
Some thoughts...:erg:
june gloom on 29/8/2006 at 22:12
i imagine he was a timebomb that hadn't been turned on yet. in other words, his speech impediment and the rather closed-minded manner of the hammers, etc. i imagine he got started when the hammers pissed him off enough (likely over his admittedly fantastic ideas such as the watchers and the children) to start up the mechanists- basically saying "well fuck you, if you won't let me have the ball i'll go play in my OWN court." he was probably genocidal/homicidal/crazy to begin with, possibly even before he was a hammer, but until he had some kind of final stressor that pushed him over the edge (where his assumed mental condition began to worsen) he was likely a decent person to be around.
it's possible that he suffered from a god (builder?) complex. he put so much effort into "praising the builder" yet it became apparent that towards the end he began to believe that HE was the builder.
Holywhippet on 29/8/2006 at 22:32
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
I'll get you started. :sly:
The Karras character was inspired from before Thief I.
In game he has obviously been around since at least Thief I.
As opposed to simply popping into existance?
I think his speech pattern is nothing more than a plot device to make his voice clearly identifiable. You don't have to rack your memory at any point, you know it's him instantly.
My guess as to his insanity is that it was due to paranoia and guilt. He'd been brought up in the Hammerite faith and it's rigid adherence to doctrine. He led a large group of Hammerites to break with the main faction and form the Mechanists who kept many of the tenets of the old faith but started doing things that were forbidden to Hammerites like developing new technology. But faith is a hard thing to shake so Karras was still worried that he was somehow betraying the Builder with his actions. He needed something to latch onto and found it in the Builder's Children - the robots. He convinced himself that these were a more "pure" form of life because they were entirely mechanical. Remember that conversation in the Eavesdropping mission between those two Mechanists outside? The male one is telling the female one that the Builder's Children are higher in the eyes of the Builder than she is and that the Builder only cares about her soul, not her feeble body. This suggests that Karras had been spreading his new doctrine about.
Take that and combine it with his discovery of Necrotix Mutox or rust gas. Karras now has both a way to build more robots and to wipe out all of the flawed organic life forms. Everything just goes click in his mind and he believes he is now one step below the Builder - that he alone has been tasked with this most sacred of undertakings.
SD on 29/8/2006 at 23:04
Quote Posted by Holywhippet
I think his speech pattern is nothing more than a plot device to make his voice clearly identifiable. You don't have to rack your memory at any point, you know it's him instantly.
They could have given him a distinctive voice without making him sound like Droopy. The fact that they gave him a speech impediment would suggest to me that it was inherent to the development of the character, rather than being merely a cool gimmick.
Quote:
My guess as to his insanity is that it was due to paranoia and guilt. He'd been brought up in the Hammerite faith and it's rigid adherence to doctrine. He led a large group of Hammerites to break with the main faction and form the Mechanists who kept many of the tenets of the old faith but started doing things that were forbidden to Hammerites like developing new technology.
Where do you get the idea that the Hammerites were opposed to new technology? Karras was still a Hammer when he constructed Garrett's mechanical eye, and he constructed it at the behest of the Hammerites themselves, to reward Garrett for ridding the world of Constantine. That doesn't seem to suggest an inherent incompatability between Hammer teachings and the development of technology.
Quote:
But faith is a hard thing to shake so Karras was still worried that he was somehow betraying the Builder with his actions. He needed something to latch onto and found it in the Builder's Children - the robots. He convinced himself that these were a more "pure" form of life because they were entirely mechanical.
Hmmm. I know this entire thread is conjecture, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that Karras was worried about betraying the Builder. If Karras was so in awe of the Builder, why does he attempt to destroy the Builder's creations? Why does he try and outdo the Builder with his own mechanical creations?
The only answer is that Karras considered himself
above the Builder, a new god for a new age. He's afflicted with one massive superiority complex, and any psychologist will tell you that this complex frequently arises to counter feelings of inferiority; feelings that might arise from being buillied by one's peers ;).
trfan518 on 29/8/2006 at 23:04
i just thought that he was just naturally born a nutcase HAHAHAHAH:laff:
Frikkinjerk on 29/8/2006 at 23:38
Regarding Karras' voice; I always felt his voice and manner of speech were part of the characterization of his being a pedantic geek of an engineer. I don't understand the supposition that his motives were driven by being ridiculed for the cadence of his voice as a child; he could have had a perfectly happy childhood and still turned out to be a genocidal loon. Either his values are categorically misplaced, or he's crazy. I place him in the Howard Hughes category of genius, but batshit insane.
Holywhippet on 30/8/2006 at 00:08
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
Where do you get the idea that the Hammerites were opposed to new technology? Karras was still a Hammer when he constructed Garrett's mechanical eye, and he constructed it at the behest of the Hammerites themselves, to reward Garrett for ridding the world of Constantine. That doesn't seem to suggest an inherent incompatability between Hammer teachings and the development of technology.
Read through the documents found in the second Thief 2 mission where you are stealing from the warehouses at the docks. Inside the building owned by the inventor you'll find a note from the Mechanists saying that, unlike the Hammerites, they are more than happy to support him and work with him. Secondly, back in the Return to the Cathedral mission from the original game you have to sanctify a grave to let a dead Hammerite rest in peace. The notes in the game states that one of the priests feels that this ritual should have been done earlier but could not ask for it without having to explain why it should be neccessary. My impression was that it was because the priest had been involved in the creation of the sunburst device which was prohibited and as a result his spirit could not rest in peace.
Finally, I'm pretty sure one of the commentaries about Thief 2 from the developers stated that the artificial eye was a gift from the Hammerites who were already starting to split off from the main faction. Certainly Karras says that he arranged for Garrett to be given it and Karras led the mass exodus from the main order.
