Thirith on 31/10/2008 at 12:10
I think the books already start pretty good - Consider Phlebas was my first Iain M. Banks, and while it's got structural problems, the world and characters that Banks creates were fascinating to me from the first.
And his success with critics and readers would suggest that there is something to him. Why do you describe it as 'inane drivel', i.e. what didn't you like: story, characters, writing style?
Hier on 31/10/2008 at 13:10
Banks' other books definitely aren't the same in tone to Consider Phlebas. Phlebas was an action-packed roller coaster space opera, very different from anything else of his I've read.
I'd recommend Player of Games before you write off the author for good. It's a completely different style and structure. Also good is Against a Dark Background. The Alchemist is so-so and Excession I thought was pretty bad, so he definitely has some better than others. I have yet to read the highly-regarded Use of Weapons or Look to Windward.
I've also read his non-sci-fi The Crow Road and The Business, the latter being forgettable but the former having some truly moving and hilarious prose. His strength is in his humour and wit in not taking things too seriously, and creating very likable and memorable characters. His weaknesses become apparent the more heavily plot-driven stories.
N'Al on 31/10/2008 at 13:10
I agree the world is quite interesting, and his writing style is pretty good as well (although nothing to - lol - write home about), so I guess it's mostly the story and characters I didn't like.
To me, the story just seemed to be a collection of set pieces with hardly any significance to each, plus the characters seemed to have quirky names and traits simply because 'that's how you do sci-fi'. I dunno, I got the impression Mr. Banks watched Star Wars one evening and went: "Ooh, I wanna do something like this."
What was most dissapointing was that the blurbs on the back of the books seemed to suggest that the books would, in some way, tackle some interesting philosophical ideas, but all I got was an adventure story.
Stitch on 31/10/2008 at 14:24
Quote Posted by D'Juhn Keep
The first 3 books in the 7-part series came out in 1996, 1998, 2000. The next book was revised and split into 2 books, the first of which came out in 2005, the second part is still being written and will
definitely not be available in February. GRRM is 60 and overweight. I can't recommend the series to anyone in good conscience until it's all finished, despite it being really really good. :(
Book four already killed the series worse than a double McRib heart attack, and the first three novels aren't nearly self-contained enough to justify reading on their own (especially as half of book three is garbage, also).
There may be a series somewhere that doesn't turn to shit as the projected number of volumes balloons, but I have yet to read it.
Thirith on 31/10/2008 at 15:32
Thanks for your post, N'Al. I'd agree with you about the setpieces - Consider Phlebas, although I like it, has some massive structural problems.
This will probably come across as sounding pedantic, pretentious and holier-than-thou, but I get much more out of posts like your last one than out of "X is inane drivel." Clearly you have a more differentiated, intelligent opinion, and that's what I find interesting. The other sort of posts usually doesn't lead to anything much beyond "X sucks!" "No, X rules! Y sucks!" ad infinitum.
Hier, what is it you disliked about Excession? I like that one a lot, again for the characters/characterisation, but there's almost a complete lack of 'Spannungsbogen' - the plot just lies there and then kinda ends...
Hier on 31/10/2008 at 16:15
N'Al, I think that's precisely what Banks was going for with Phlebas. A Star Wars knockoff, which if he's lucky would land him a multi-million dollar movie and licensing deal. I'll stress again that his other Culture (and non-Culture sci-fi) novels are of a very different tone. I think Phlebas was his first sci-fi novel, where he basically stuck to all the genre staples, but after that he took his Culture idea and expanded it into some pretty interesting directions. Player of Games is the best of Bank's sci-fi that I've read. A great set of characters, funny dialogue, and a very thoughtful view of what a post-scarcity anarchistic utopia would look like, and how people in that society would look at a society not unlike our own.
Thirith, Excession had some great views into how the Ships and Minds worked and interacted, but otherwise I thought it was pretty empty. A fantastic premise that went absolutely nowhere. The human characters were completely useless and the ending was anti-climatic to say the least. I got the impression he just wanted to stop writing it, so he dropped it then and there.
N'Al on 31/10/2008 at 16:23
See, now that sounds pretty encouraging.
I've actually got books 2 and 3 (Player of Games and Creator of Weapons or somesuch?) lying around at home, but I never bothered reading them after Consider Phlebas turned out to be such a dissapointment.
Muzman on 31/10/2008 at 16:24
erm pretending as if I only read the first post and the partly ignoring it and taking this as a 'book thread'...
I just finished
The Little Drummer Girl after a bit of a hiatus, being fairly sure Le Carre would send his characters to awkward doom as he so often does.
And I re read
Day of the Triffids.
Oh and
The Road as well
Now I'm reading (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cecil_Masterman)
The Double Cross System and
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decameron) The Decameron (not least of all because it's free).
Thirith on 31/10/2008 at 16:41
(
http://www.sfreviews.net/phlebas.html) This review expresses pretty well what I thought of
Consider Phlebas, although I also prefer
Player of Games.
In any case, though, Banks' strength is definitely not that of tight plotting, nor is he a sparse, disciplined writer. His strengths lie in creating worlds, cultures (or Cultures, that is), characters (more so the non-human ones than the humans, though) and evocative scenes. From what I've read so far (perhaps 4-5 novels) that would probably tell people whether they are likely to enjoy his sci-fi or not.
Yell Piranha on 1/11/2008 at 00:25
Another vote here for N'Al to try some of Bank's other books. Consider is the most standard plot of his Sci-Fi novels. I still really like it as his style just sits well with me but I suggest you may find some of the more Culture centric books more interesting.
For the record I think Excession is great, but only if viewed in conjunction with the other books. I think it gives a very different and interesting viewpoint on the universe they inhabit.
Has anyone else read Matter? I thought that it had a weak first 2/3rds with some less interesting characters but managed to put in a strong ending.
