Jason Moyer on 4/1/2017 at 07:56
Traditionally they've been first person, partially because "immersion" but primarily because that was the viewpoint used for Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex, Arx Fatalis, Elder Scrolls, Dishonored, etc. While I haven't played it yet, Metal Gear Solid V (of all things) might make the case for a third-person game belonging to the genre.
Some things that kinda muddy the genre for me are a.) games that are half in one world and half in the other i.e. BioShock, which is a heavily scripted shooter that also has simulation/emergent elements and b.) *-alikes. For instance, I'd categorize Alpha Protocol, DXHR, and DXMD as Deus Ex-alikes but they don't have much in the way of immersive sim qualities. I'd probably consider Thief 4 and Neon Struct to be Thief-alikes.
And to give an example of what IMO separates immersive sims from pure sims, Assetto Corsa is a simulator (it's entirely based around the interaction of simulated systems) and it's immersive (it's first person and faithfully recreates the experience of driving a car) but if it were an immersive sim you'd be able to get out of the car, buy a case of motor oil, smear the oil all over an opponent's tires while they weren't paying attention, and then watch the game's systems react to that unexpected behavior.
Judith on 4/1/2017 at 08:28
In the documents mentioned above devs use GTA 3 as the example of such systems too. Thinking about it as a game genre is probably a mistake. It's a design approach to make LDs work easier and more consistent, and to make game worlds more immersive and believable to the player. It's not like it's used exclusively, there still have to be chokepoints, scripted events etc.
Thirith on 4/1/2017 at 08:40
I think that's a good way to look at it, Judith, and it also avoids fruitless "Is it or isn't it?" discussions. A game can subscribe more (Deus Ex) or less (GTA 3) to the design ethos of the immersive sim. That way you can also look at games like Ultima VII and see how they point towards later immersive sims due to their interlocking systems, and not get hung up on entirely subjective arguments re: first person/third person. (See Malf's good points made earlier in the thread.)
ZylonBane on 4/1/2017 at 08:43
Quote Posted by SD
Also, ZylonBane still nowhere near as clever as he thinks. So nothing new there.
Despite all your arm-flapping, at least I didn't just use an expression as if it meant the exact opposite of what it actually means.
Chade on 4/1/2017 at 14:26
Getting in a bit late here, but I'd say a game is an immersive sim to the extent which the game's systems are designed around the idea that you can immerse the player in your game by giving them a lot of levers to use to influence (directly and indirectly) a system full of interacting parts, and hopefully these abilities encourage the player to be very observant and actively involved in your world, and if you get the atmosphere and fiction right hopefully that translates to them being "immersed".
(Admittedly not much of a succinct definition, but I think it describes the ideal at the heart of an immersive sim.)
SD on 4/1/2017 at 15:18
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Despite all your arm-flapping, at least I didn't just use an expression as if it meant the exact opposite of what it actually means.
No, you're just trying to make a word mean something other than what it actually means.
SD on 4/1/2017 at 15:26
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
And to give an example of what IMO separates immersive sims from pure sims, Assetto Corsa is a simulator (it's entirely based around the interaction of simulated systems) and it's immersive (it's first person and faithfully recreates the experience of driving a car) but if it were an immersive sim you'd be able to get out of the car, buy a case of motor oil, smear the oil all over an opponent's tires while they weren't paying attention, and then watch the game's systems react to that unexpected behavior.
Does this level of complexity feature in any game ever made? Do "immersive sims" even exist?
froghawk on 4/1/2017 at 15:36
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
Traditionally they've been first person, partially because "immersion" but primarily because that was the viewpoint used for Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Thief, Deus Ex, Arx Fatalis, Elder Scrolls, Dishonored, etc. While I haven't played it yet, Metal Gear Solid V (of all things) might make the case for a third-person game belonging to the genre.
Some things that kinda muddy the genre for me are a.) games that are half in one world and half in the other i.e. BioShock, which is a heavily scripted shooter that also has simulation/emergent elements and b.) *-alikes. For instance, I'd categorize Alpha Protocol, DXHR, and DXMD as Deus Ex-alikes but they don't have much in the way of immersive sim qualities. I'd probably consider Thief 4 and Neon Struct to be Thief-alikes.
Ok, so in your mind, what concretely makes Elder Scrolls games full on ImSims whereas NuDX are not? I get that putting a basket on someone's head and blocking their line of sight has qualities of that, but in the context of a TES game it feels more like exploiting a bug - it breaks immersion for a shopkeeper to not notice that there's a basket on their head while someone is stealing their stuff. Granted, there are pretty much no ImSim situations in the new DX games, and they are basically a step backwards in game design, but I'd argue that any such situations in TES are the result of bugs, or the interaction of too many systems that the devs didn't really intend to be used in tandem, rather than developer intentions.
Which I guess brings in a question of... can a game fit the definition without the devs intending for it to work that way? I'd say of course, but part of the point of an ImSim to me is that all of them are rather tight. Yes, the original Deus Ex may lean towards system vomit at times, but it doesn't have an enormously sprawling cut and paste world (automatic immersion breaker imo), character classes, multiple guilds that aren't mutually exclusive, etc.
Malf on 4/1/2017 at 16:14
Quote Posted by SD
Does this level of complexity feature in any game ever made? Do "immersive sims" even exist?
For that level of simulation, you're looking at something like Dwarf Fortress. And that's why I love it so.
But I'd never consider it an immersive sim; rather, a god game built on an incredibly complex fantasy world simulation.
Jason Moyer on 4/1/2017 at 18:08
You can't do that specific thing in My Summer Car, but you can drink beer while driving around the Finnish countryside in a car you built yourself so I'd say it's close.
Froghawk for me it depends on which TES you're talking about. The first Bethsoft game I'd personally consider an IS is Oblivion, because that's when they started adding simulation elements to their games. I don't think they have the depth of an LGS game, but I don't think there's a massive difference between Underworld and Skyrim. They're different in terms of depth and width rather than there being a massive difference in design philosophy. But when you lure a Dragon over to a group of enemies you aren't strong enough to deal with or wait outside a cave until everyone is sleeping so you can sneak in, steal the macguffin and silently backstab the bandit chief, to me that's stuff you do in an IS.
