Yakoob on 3/1/2017 at 23:28
Quote Posted by Malf
You know, I'm not convinced that's true. I still refer to actions performed by a third-person character in-game as "my" actions. And in MMOs in particular, my "toon" was "me" in the game world. "I" would attack that group of monsters, "I" explore the world. I don't experience a massive difference in immersion, being sucked in to a game world, between third and first person games. I'm still able to suspend disbelief and convince myself that it's me in the character's situation.
Don't get me wrong, there's something definitely different about first person games. But I think excluding games with virtually every other requirement from the genre purely because of POV is pointless. For example, which is a more relevant comparison? Deus Ex & MGS V or Deus Ex & Doom?
Agreed. Immersion is by definition subjective, and people have different things that immerse them.
For example, I found
Life is Strange to be much more immersive than many FPSes I played exactly because of the phenomenal use of composition, camera effects, lighting and acting. It was third person, perhaps even "fourth" if you consider non-over-the-shoulder cinematic bits.
(That being said, I still prefer First Person in traditional ImSims. System Shocks felt much more immersive to me than Dead Spaces)
Jason Moyer on 3/1/2017 at 23:44
You guys are putting way too much emphasis on "immersive" and not enough (basically not any) on "sim".
Pyrian on 4/1/2017 at 00:06
I think people agree more on what simulation is than on what immersion even is, nevermind what actually immerses people on an individual basis. The difficulty in defining an immersive sim isn't in the "sim" part.
Jason Moyer on 4/1/2017 at 00:19
Yet people are listing a pile of games that don't simulate anything. Hell, I wouldn't even consider DXHR/DXMD to be immersive sims even though they're part of the same series as DX and DXIW, which were.
SD on 4/1/2017 at 00:47
All video games simulate something, rendering the term "simulator" essentially meaningless in this context.
Jason Moyer on 4/1/2017 at 01:07
Simulation in this context refers to non-scripted systems that interact with each other such as those found in Ultima Underworld, System Shock, and Thief, so no it's not useless.
ZylonBane on 4/1/2017 at 01:24
Indeed, it's like he heard the expression "in this context" somewhere once, but never understood what it meant.
SD on 4/1/2017 at 01:28
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
Simulation in this context refers to non-scripted systems that interact with each other such as those found in Ultima Underworld, System Shock, and Thief, so no it's not useless.
You said that people were listing games that don't simulate anything, so you were factually wrong.
If you want to make a word mean something other than its actual meaning, then that probably ought to be your starting point. I'm sure the Oxford English Dictionary's team of lexicographers are frothing at the gash in anticipation of your telephone call.
Also, ZylonBane still nowhere near as clever as he thinks. So nothing new there.
demagogue on 4/1/2017 at 01:54
There's a big difference between an event triggered by the player crossing a marker versus one caused by the simulation of a real world system regardless of the player's position which the player can learn and game. Whether or not you want to define one or the other or both with the word "simulation" is kind of beside the point. They're two different gameplay mechanics that make a difference to how the player plays the game, on their own terms versus on the mapper's terms.
Judith on 4/1/2017 at 07:37
Yup, and if you're not convinced yet, google GDC presentations by devs who worked on immersive sims, like Randy Smith and Harvey Smith - Practical Techniques in Emergent Gameplay or Harvey Smith - Systemic Level Design. They never talk about POV or camera placement, only about level designer tools and how that relates to gameplay.
