epithumia on 14/3/2005 at 23:15
Quote Posted by OrbWeaver
I'll put it up if you can find someone to host it...
I can only make the offer so many times:
(
http://thiefmissions.com/hosting.html)
Weasel on 14/3/2005 at 23:44
Quote Posted by ProjectX
is that the bit in the ravens loft (name?) level where there's the guard in front olf the entrance. I shot at him, he chased me, I shot some more, accidentally hit a wooden beam and the whole load of barrels came crashing down on him. aye, 'twas funny.
Heron's Loft. Like the Blue Heron Inn (is that right?) in Thief 3. Someone at Ion Storm has a thing for herons. I know a heron myself (it's a bird like a crane).
SneaksieDave on 15/3/2005 at 01:35
Nothing wrong with zone ambient light, as long as it's kept very low. With a value of 2 or 3, it doesn't wash anything out, and is very dark - like T1&2 - and eliminates all unrealistic pitch black areas. That along with no shadow omnis will surely give some great results.
PlaneShifter on 15/3/2005 at 02:50
The OMs use ambient light in the LevelInfo (at a brightness of 8), so it can't be that bad. Pitch black shadows makes maneuvering a level harder. The OMs also all have distance fog.
Dario on 15/3/2005 at 02:58
To clear something up a little:
I don't intend to say "put no-shadow omni's everywhere" as if dark areas are not realistic and need to be brightened. Every place has dark areas.
What I mean is, if there is a BRIGHT light somewhere, you need to brighten the areas around it, because light bounces - so don't let anything near a bright light be pitch black.
When you turn on a light in the kitchen, whether it directly shines in the dining room or not, the dining room WILL light up and you'll be able to walk around, seeing everything clearly and easily. Life would be pain if everything was pitch black except where light shone directly. You would have to carry lanterns, because every shadow would be pitch black.
So just put no-shadow omni's around corners of bright lights, as if the lit up surfaces are bouncing the light.
- - -
Quote Posted by Mandrake
Not to be too picky, but this is not really radiosity is it ? Radiosity is when a light source can strike a surface, and then reflect/refract off it, and light other surfaces which don't have direct line of sight to the light source, which is what happens in real life.
As far as I know the Thief3 engine doesn't support true radiosity ? In other words this is not radiosity, but simply filling in the shadows a bit to prevent pitch black shadows?
The tutorial just shows you how to fake it and get the
effects of Radiosity.
Radiosity simulators (like graphics programs, and even the Half-Life 2 Source engine, which compiles light with radiosity information and properly bounces light all around) use radiosity generally as bouncing light. Refractions (light passing through something and getting bent, changing direction, or changing color, whether through glass, water, plastic, etc) is controlled by Raytracing (not radiosity, though it encompasses radiosity - raytracing is more detailed and takes massive amounts of resources to calculate. Radiosity is a simpler type of raytracing that by default only encompasses a simple method of bouncing light).
I think you already know for the most part, but for those who dont... now you know.
Radiosity = bouncing light. Light bounces with a very basic projection.
Raytracing = light that gets disrupted along it's path from light-to-surface, and needs extra calculations in order to bend, change color, or leave a volume in the air.
Basically light that needs to be "different" on the wall has to be calculated to see when, where, and how the light changes direction or changes color. Ray Tracing - Tracing Rays.
(referenced from a siggraph glossary of 3d mumbo-jumbo)
(
http://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl=en&lr=&safe=active&oi=defmore&q=define:radiosity)
(
http://www.siggraph.org/education/materials/HyperVis/vis_gloss.htm)
- - -
Some pitcure or real-life lighting.
Inline Image:
http://www.vandykehome.com/photos/interiors/bon_int/bar.jpgInline Image:
http://www.vandykehome.com/photos/interiors/bon_int/lr.jpgBecause light bounces, it radically smoothes out.
There's no telling what a room like this would look like if light didn't bounce.
A big "IN YOUR FACE" to Doom3 with this picture. Thank you. Thank you very much. :) Dynamic shadows suck very much, and will never be used as hard stencils again for the rest of eternity.
Half-Life 2 is on the right track. Soft shadows and Radiosity. It doesn't get much better than that, with respect to today's hardware. We don't need/want dymanic shadows, because I've almost never seen a moving light, nor do I want to play minute-sized maps in the dark.
-
(
http://www.deefrag.com/Files/Temp/images/plaza%20radiosity.jpg)
When I was working on this HL2:DM map, I was shocked to see this vivid display of BEAUTIFUL radiosity. It was this wall covered with Orange measurement texture, and the sunlight bounced right off it and made the gray brick wall right across from it orange as well! :wot: Beautiful.
Note also how in these next pictures --
(
http://www.deefrag.com/Files/Temp/images/dm_plaza170014.jpg)
-- there is only ONE light source, and yet everything so beautifully, perfectly, and evenly bounces around to make the perfect simulation of reality. There are even nooks and crannies that get almost completely dark, and rightfully so, showing off how radiosity properly treats all areas. It's not meant to just brighten stuff; it's meant to do light the way it really is.
(
http://www.deefrag.com/Files/Temp/images/dm_plaza170020.jpg)
Where is all this lighting coming from? It would take Unreal or any other engine at least 4 large lights to accomplish this effect, covering every side of every brush - hitting all faces. Well, in this scene, there are... 0 omni lights. It's just the sun doing it's thing. :thumb:
Once again, a nice, profound "IN THOU FACE!!" to Doom3 and the crew who pioneered this brief, dark age in gaming.
Epic developed per-pixel lighting about the same time as Id (Doom3), however, they are not going to use it until it has soft shadows and bright, beautiful levels in it's agenda.
I watched a video of Unreal Engine 3 being demo'ed again by Tim Sweeney as usual, and they are using per-pixel lighting with soft shadows to make this ENOURMOUS city - fully accessible - and might I add, very, very bright, and softly lit.
That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you do lighting. :thumb:
Renzatic on 15/3/2005 at 03:53
Quote Posted by Dario
with respect to today's hardware. We don't need/want dymanic shadows, because I've almost never seen a moving light
You must not get out much at night...you know, when the cars are moving around with their headlights on.
And as much as I've gone over this argument before, stencil shadows have nothing to do with small level sizes. Hell, Half-Life 2 didn't exactly have huge levels to sport and it doesn't use any form of modern realtime lighting.
The Nay-Sayer on 15/3/2005 at 04:35
Quote Posted by Renzatic
You must not get out much at night...you know, when the cars are moving around with their headlights on.
And as much as I've gone over this argument before, stencil shadows have nothing to do with small level sizes. Hell, Half-Life 2 didn't exactly have huge levels to sport and it doesn't use any form of modern realtime lighting.
But it does use millions more startic meshes and FAR BETTER textures on everything... as well as large areas.
Most of the water ski maps in HL2 are twice the size of the combined levels of TDS.
Renzatic on 15/3/2005 at 04:44
I can't argue map size for T3 in particular, but I can say that the stencil shadows aren't the sole cause of small levels..at least not in general.
As for textures, yeah...HL2 does have great textures, but it has more to do with artistry than engine capabilities (plus prerendered radiosity, which admittedly does help). There's nothing stopping someone from going all out and making a ton of ultra sharp 1024*textures in T3.
Springheel on 15/3/2005 at 04:44
Oh yes, please, can we turn this into a T3 vs Half-Life 2 thread? Huh? Can we, can we??
Karkianman on 15/3/2005 at 04:49
@ Krypt's post:
besides the fact the Strength aug didnt control what the player could hurt people with, but the fact that objects could hurt people. so if you threw 20 barrels on a person, they just go "Hey!", but with strength aug, you could drop a glass cup and person and kill them.
