Malf on 24/1/2024 at 10:49
MGS4 was my first MGS game (I sold my PS1 before the original MGS came out in order to buy an N64).
Not exactly the best advertisement for the series. You could never tell when the next 30 minute+ cutscene would interrupt proceedings.
It was certainly one of the games that helped cement my view that the term "auteur" is more often than not a polite term for "pretentious wanker".
Sulphur on 24/1/2024 at 10:58
For what it's worth, MGS4 was the one where Kojima was mostly hands-off*. I don't reckon it's bad overall, but the cutscenes and poor plotting definitely did try my patience at times.
Also, that is a terrible entry point into the series! :laff: Its MO was to pick up all the threads it could from the previous entries and bring them to a lot of poorly paid-off conclusions, which means not only must it have read as ludicrously opaque fluff in your playthrough, it also retroactively spoiled you on what would have been the best parts of the series' setup from 1-3. Oh well, it's too bad, really, because I think MGS3 was one of the finest games of its generation, and it managed that by showcasing unexpected gameplay depth while being fantastically silly, and it still took you through a fun yet moving journey in spite of its penchant for labouring its points.
Edit: *looking it up to refresh my memory, Kojima was going to be hands-off, but fans apparently entreated him to get more involved via... death threats. So he ended up being a co-director. I do remember in an interview he said something along the lines of wanting new talent to have their voices heard in MGS4, but that's from a video I saw 15 years ago, so my recollection may not be exactly accurate.
demagogue on 24/1/2024 at 20:14
This all reminds me when I was playing Death Stranding, which was my first real experience with Kojima's kind of game, I remember an early cut scene that was really over the top--I was already sick of them from the first one, but this one got crazy quick--where the guy started levitating and lighting and meteors and shit starting raining down and exploding around him while he went off on Lord knows what rant, and I just remember thinking, look man, I just want to get back to walking. That's all I want to do here. Can I go now? XD
He didn't let me. So I never did get very far into that game, although I liked the bits where I was tactically walking in nature.
catbarf on 24/1/2024 at 22:07
Kojima could make a lot more accessible and, frankly, better media if he were subordinate to someone with the authority to veto the pretentious, self-indulgent, tonally dissonant, and just plain overwrought writing that saturates his games and distracts from the actual gameplay.
The MGS games do such interesting stuff with their gameplay that it's a shame they're mostly known for weird writing and long cutscenes. They have some surprisingly sophisticated stealth mechanics, AI that reacts to your methods and adapts accordingly, interesting setpieces, and some cleverly implemented item/environment interactions that would probably prompt more arguments over whether the games qualify as 'immersive sims' if they weren't buried under all the auteur garbage. They're some really cool games when Kojima will just shut up and let you play them.
Anyways, Malf clued me in to Blood West in the Best of 2023 thread, and so far I've been having a good time with it. It's an open-world stealth shooter with RPG elements, but I agree with Malf that it isn't much of an imm sim beyond ticking those boxes. It seemed very hard at first until I understood the boundaries of the AI and stealth system, which have and now it's manageable- combat is dangerous, but avoiding enemies is easy and dying has been rare. And it has atmosphere in spades, with a consistent art style backed up by moody ambience that picks up different motifs depending on where you go in the open world. Stephen Russell also does a great job voicing the gravelly undead cowboy protagonist. I've just about finished the first act it seems, so hoping the remaining two are as good.
Edit: Oh yeah, and I finished True Stalker, which starts off strong but overstays its welcome. The protagonist character gets knocked out a total of, no joke, over twenty times, a not-insignificant amount of my playtime consisted of running through empty environments (no A-Life) to get to a quest destination, and the last quarter of the game feels like wanky fanfiction. It has excellent UI improvements and some interesting missions, but by the end I just wanted to be done. Solid effort, doubt I'll ever replay it.
Sulphur on 25/1/2024 at 03:46
Quote Posted by catbarf
Kojima could make a lot more accessible and, frankly, better media if he were subordinate to someone with the authority to veto the pretentious, self-indulgent, tonally dissonant, and just plain overwrought writing that saturates his games and distracts from the actual gameplay.
The MGS games do such interesting stuff with their gameplay that it's a shame they're mostly known for weird writing and long cutscenes. They have some surprisingly sophisticated stealth mechanics, AI that reacts to your methods and adapts accordingly, interesting setpieces, and some cleverly implemented item/environment interactions that would probably prompt more arguments over whether the games qualify as 'immersive sims' if they weren't buried under all the auteur garbage. They're some really cool games when Kojima will just
shut up and let you play them.
We mostly got that in The Phantom Pain, and I have to say that while it's a fantastic game, the open world layout and the (relative) lack of narrative quickly skewed the balance in the opposite direction, and I didn't care all that much for it. Unlike some folks, I like cutscenes, especially when they're paced out well during a playthrough, for example as a payoff for clearing a gruelling gameplay section. Though it's not hard to admit that
cutscene pacing isn't Kojima's strong suit, I think TPP's story was just too fragmented and disperse. I think striking a stronger middle ground would have made it pretty much
the Metal Gear, if it could have been made without Konami booting Kojima around.
Also, the graphics whore in me never died, and I will never fail to be impressed with how his team pull off all of those cinematics in each game in real-time, every goddamn time.
Tomi on 25/1/2024 at 16:14
Quote Posted by Anarchic Fox
What do y'all think are the games that feel most like Star Wars, then?
Like Sulphur and JM pointed out, we all expect different things from a Star Wars game. I had never thought about it that way. For me,
Jedi: Fallen Order really captured that Star Wars feeling. It's not the
best SW game though, although I don't know which one deserves that title. The Lego Star Wars games were pretty fun. X-Wing was great but it's ancient now. Never played Tie Fighter. SW Squadrons isn't bad, but everything in it feels way too scripted. Dark Forces and Jedi Knight 2 were also a lot of fun, some of my favourite games back then, but they're also ancient now. KOTOR 1 & 2 had great stories but the actual gameplay was awful.
I'll get Jedi Survivor on XBox once it gets a bit cheaper, or finds its way on the Game Pass.
Jason Moyer on 25/1/2024 at 16:18
If you took the Star Wars license away from Jedi Survivor, would it still be an interesting game?
Aja on 25/1/2024 at 16:20
In most games I have no patience for cutscene, but I admit I've got a soft spot for Kojima's, and I wouldn't have them any other way than his absurd, cringey, self-indulgent style. Death Stranding wouldn't be the profoundly weird and unique experience it is if the gameplay wasn't bolstered by its bizarre story.
Thirith on 25/1/2024 at 16:21
@Tomi: You may want to check out the X-Wing Alliance Upgrade community and the work they're doing. They've done impressive things with X-Wing Alliance, including a Total Conversion of TIE Fighter.
Tomi on 25/1/2024 at 16:54
Quote Posted by Thirith
@Tomi: You may want to check out the X-Wing Alliance Upgrade community and the work they're doing. They've done impressive things with
X-Wing Alliance, including a Total Conversion of
TIE Fighter.
Ah, I had actually forgotten about X-Wing Alliance. I'll have to check out the Upgrade some time. :thumb:
I started playing
Hitman: World of Assassination (it has all three "new" Hitman games) because it's leaving Game Pass at the end of this month. I wish I hadn't left it so late, because I'm actually quite enjoying this game. I like its fresh take on stealth with all the different disguises, and even though the sneaking part of the game isn't on the same level with something like Thief, it's surprisingly fun. The levels are beautifully crafted and feel like real places rather than game levels.
Having said that, the game is full of spy movie cliches, and acquiring intel is a bit too simplified. In fact the intel is usually forced down your throat when people happily tell all their darkest secrets right in front of you and everyone else, or you find a top secret document that someone has conveniently forgotten on their desk. In general the game holds your hand a bit too much - I think it'd be nicer to actually figure out something by yourself rather than just following the quest markers. On the other hand there are so many things to do and so many ways to complete each mission, that it's alright.
No way I'm going to make it through all three Hitman games in just a couple of days, so unless World of Assassination has a big discount some time soon, I guess I'll have to watch the ending on Youtube or something.
