vurt on 1/1/2024 at 13:10
Quote Posted by Sulphur
It's not a simulation because it's not being simulated. Elements like mixing flour and water into bread are object combinations, not physics-based interactions. Water wasn't given any physical properties, for instance. A bucket of water was simply something that worked on a few objects and didn't on others because Origin didn't design for every interaction that was possible to simulate. The weather effects wete great, but had basically no impact on the world aside from NPC schedules. The closest U7 came to simulating anything was object volumes for your inventory bags... which was also not a great feature because it gave very little information about what the problem was when things didn't fit.
Because you're gunking up this one with three separate arguments, buster. One: what is a simulation, two what is an immersive sim, and three, your need to be validated. Out of those, the second one has been done to death already in this very forum multiple times, so yes, I have to tell you that in the thread you are gunking it up with.
You can't even mention a modern game that simulates it better. Obviously that's why i asked you which games you are comparing it to, otherwise it's not particularly interesting, is it? Are you comparing it to a game you dreamt up?
Object combinations can absolutely be a simulation, simulation isn't just about physics, never has been. A sim absolutely doesn't equal perfection in all areas, because there's no such game, no flight sim will simulate everything realistically either, but it will go beyond what we usually think is the "norm", it will try to simulate perhaps weather, day/night, perhaps some of the world's physics in a realistic way.
You could move crates and stack them on top of each other to reach new places, that's one example of how it simulated physics. This is a good example of an immersive sim that goes beyond the norm of simulating something in the game world. Most modern games will not be close to this type of world interactivity apart from Bethesda's games perhaps. Immersion and Simulation were KEY words when they made this game, undoubtedly.
I don't need to be validated more than anyone else here. If it's been "done to death" it's curious how you still can't restrain yourself from involvement here, i guess it must be your need for validation or you don't really think it's been done to death and it needs to be discussed for a few pages more :)
I looked at the thread and actually it's just a bunch of yes-men agreeing and adding more games to the list of what they think immersive sims are. I think i'm the only one in the thread with a different take. "done to death", ok.
Sulphur on 1/1/2024 at 14:50
Quote Posted by brainiac
You can't even mention a modern game that simulates it better. Obviously that's why i asked you which games you are comparing it to, otherwise it's not particularly interesting, is it? Are you comparing it to a game you dreamt up?
Object combinations can absolutely be a simulation, simulation isn't just about physics, never has been.
'Monkey Island is a simulation because it has a rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle.' - Smart Gaming Person with unique critical thinking skills.
nicked on 1/1/2024 at 15:34
Imsim is not a term that needs clear definition. It's shorthand for games like System Shock, Ultima, Thief etc. If you start trying to pin down a physical definition, you quickly find that you can't really nail it down to anything that applies to all those types of games. It's like trying to define an RPG. You either end up going so narrow as to exclude games that everyone thinks are RPGs, or you go so broad that the term is meaningless because you can apply it to anything.
The only reason people are arguing is because you're inventing your own definition of imsim and acting as if it's the one source of truth. The wooly cultural semantics of the term are far more likely to resonate than any bullet-pointed definition you can come up with.
vurt on 1/1/2024 at 15:36
Quote Posted by Sulphur
'Monkey Island is a simulation because it has a rubber chicken with a pulley in the middle.' - Smart Gaming Person with unique critical thinking skills.
Monkey Island is an adventure game that doesn't simulate either weathers, day/night cycles, NPC schedules. It doesn't do non-linearity well either (which we expect in simulators), you can't do useless stuff which is also typical for any sim, the player freedom.
It doesn't try to do simulation and it's not good at it. Ultima 7 tries to do simulation and immersion and excels at it for this genre.
Who the hell doesn't think U7 simulates a ton of stuff that other games does not? No one would agree with you here and I'm pretty sure you're only arguing to argue and not because you've figured out a great argument. Also you failed again to mention those games you are comparing it to, i'm super curious because i want to play them if U7 is so bad at simulation in comparison.
vurt on 1/1/2024 at 15:41
Quote Posted by nicked
The only reason people are arguing is because you're inventing your own definition of imsim and acting as if it's the one source of truth.
Nope, you didn't read, i said i don't care and it's not against the law to call it whatever you want.
I'm saying that personally i find it really misleading and just overall lame, like we don't know what a simulator is all of a sudden or that simulator gets a new meaning if we put Immersive in front of it.
Fine, do that but i can't take it seriously and i won't use it for games that aren't simulating stuff to any greater degree than e.g Mario 64 does (and does better on that front than those supposed immersive sims you list).
Sulphur on 1/1/2024 at 15:48
Quote Posted by super smart genrologist
You could move crates and stack them on top of each other to reach new places, that's one example of how it simulated physics. This is a good example of an immersive sim that goes beyond the norm of simulating something in the game world. Most modern games will not be close to this type of world interactivity apart from Bethesda's games perhaps.
'Half Life 2 is an immersive sim.' -Critical Thinking Exemplar
vurt on 1/1/2024 at 15:57
Quote Posted by Sulphur
'Half Life 2 is an immersive sim.' -Critical Thinking Exemplar
so again you think you can extract one thing from a game and argue that's the genre? A game is never the sum of all its parts? No one would agree with you.
U7 is a perfect example of a game that does many things that we expect from a sim, HL2, Monkey Island not so much. This isn't rocket science.
Sulphur on 1/1/2024 at 16:25
'My randomly bodged together and poorly described criteria define immersive sims, everybody else, including some old dude who made the foundational games in the genre, is wrong.' - Very Brainy Game Philosopher
vurt on 1/1/2024 at 16:28
Keep on arguing with yourself my dude, it doesn't come off as you have nothing and it's also the only way to win this, you can do it!!!
I've never said anyone is wrong or can't call it whatever they want btw, but keep lying if you feel it validates you.
I mean i can call a motherboard a mothermodem if i want (maybe i think it sounds cool? my short for it would be mtrmdm - even cooler!). But i also probably wouldn't fool myself thinking others (outside my group) wouldn't laugh at the sheer stupidity of it...
Sulphur on 1/1/2024 at 16:36
'I cast projection.' -Self-aware Immersive Sim Wizard
