What are you kicking?

EvaUnit02 on 14/6/2015 at 23:29

Broken Age's Kickstarter received 833% funding and he still couldn't control the scope of it; $2 MILLION DOLLARS is over-budget is no laughing matter. The Kotick anecdote is proof that he has a HISTORY of doing just that. Stop being fanboy in denial and face the facts.

I don't think game design is really Schafer's calling, he probably should be doing Adult Swim cartoons or graphic novels.

Starker on 15/6/2015 at 01:13

Quote Posted by EvaUnit02

First of all, 3.3 million was not the funding they had available for the game. Amazon took 5% of that and Kickstarter took a further 5%, plus there was the documentary and the money spent on fulfilling backer rewards, so the actual amount that they had for the game was more like 2 million.

Secondly, 833% of the funding my ass -- the budget was whatever money they raised. Who says that the initial Kickstarter goal has to be the exact budget? Do you really think that they should've made a small game for 300k and pocketed the rest of the money?

Thirdly, as I've shown, Brian Fargo did the exact same thing, going upwards of 3 million "over budget" in the process and I don't see you calling him out on that.

And lastly, so what if they did go over the budget? They put in their own money and finished the game, with no skin off the backers. In fact, the backers got a bigger and more polished game out of it. A company adding millions of their own money to the KS budget to deliver a better game, well excuse me if I don't run around with a pitchfork.

Oh, and that Kotick quote "proves" nothing. Game projects being late and going over budget is extremely common. That's just a reality of game development. If I'm a "fanboy" for calmly looking at the facts and not jumping to conclusions then so be it. Maybe you should stop twisting the facts, so that I don't have to correct you on them.

Nedan on 15/6/2015 at 10:03

Bobby Kotick may come off as a prick to the general public that doesn't know him personally... but, IMHO, he was spot on with Tim Schafer having a history of this sort of thing. But the real reason I posted a link to that article was not to prove that but to show a possible glimpse into Tim Schafer's character:

Quote Posted by Bobby Kotick

"The guy comes out and says I'm a prick,"

"I've never met him in my life - I've never had anything to do with him. I never had any involvement in the Vivendi project that they were doing, Brütal Legend, other than I was in one meeting where the guys looked at it and said, 'He's late, he's missed every milestone, he's overspent the budget and it doesn't seem like a good game. We're going to cancel it."

Whether this quote right here is true or not, it does say an awful lot me. That Tim Schafer might have been too quick to throw someone else under the bus before even accepting any blame. After all, why throw stones at the man on the top if you have never even met or talked to him? And being the popular opinion to throw stones at the man does not justify it or make it right.

As for Activision/Vivendi trying to stop Brutal Legend from being made... whether it is a dick move or not entirely depends upon the details of the contract. Activision/Vivendi might have funded a little bit of the development of the game... if so... what was their money paying for? They weren't giving it to DoubleFine out of the goodness of their hearts or for charity obviously. Most developers literally sell the rights of all the original content made for the game being developed (models, textures, sound assets, etc.) to the publisher as part of the publishing agreement. If that is the case with Brutal Legend & old Tim tried to take that content to EA... then Activision/Vivendi may have had a solid case & then they would've had every right to take DoubleFine & EA to court. But without knowing the full details of the contract between DoubleFine & Activision/Vivendi... then I have to say that anybody jumping on either side without knowing the details is a complete & utter fool/idiot/moron.

The way I see it, Tim Schafer is starting to develop the same exact problem that Peter Molyneux is know for... or rather... infamous for. Promising the world when you can't even deliver 10% of that or having absolutely no friggin' clue of just how much money all of your promises will cost. The difference between Brian Fargo going over budget & Tim Schafer is that Brian Fargo's current studio has yet to drop support for a project. I actually own Spacebase DF-9 & all support attempts to get it working have failed as the game still needs patching. Now hopefully with enough fan support it might get a few unofficial fan patches or mods to fix it up... but that should never ever be the case. If your studio is still open & running... you have an obligation to your customers... period. You should either patch the product up, offer full refunds to all customers &/or pull the defective product entirely from shelves. But DoubleFine unfortunately didn't do any of that. The game is still currently selling on steam... so they did absolutely nothing. Instead, DoubleFine would rather just cut their loses & run. And doing something like that says a hell of a lot about their business practices & that they never had any faith in their own product to begin with. It also damages whatever reputation Tim & his company may have had in the eyes of his customers. And let's be honest, most customers will also stop having any faith in any future products they deliver as a result.

Honestly, I believe a lot of the flak aimmed at Tim Schafer & DoubleFine stems from this very game (Spacebase DF-9). Is that said flak justified though? Well unfortunately they (Tim & DoubleFine) haven't done anything of significance for the community to make that said flak they receive unjustified.

In the end... I personally think that Tim Schafer is merely just the victim of his own overzealous nature. All this drama & crowd funding only proves... to the powers that be... that publishers, no matter how hated they are/were, did serve a significant purpose in AAA game development. To rein in on overzealous developers such as Peter Molyneux & the like. And for other indie-devs trying to make a break in this industry through crowd funding, this is not the message or example they want set. Because it could potentially close off crowd funding as source to make it in the industry.

The only piece of advice I could even attempt to offer Tim & DoubleFine at this point would be... "Don't let your mouth write a check that your ass can't cash."

Starker on 15/6/2015 at 10:51

Quote Posted by Nedan

He didn't throw anyone under the bus. He just made an off the cuff remark that Kotick didn't have to be quite as dickish as he was, and he had ample reason for doing so, because Activision dropped the project without even telling Double Fine about it. If that isn't a dick move I don't know what is. Maybe try putting yourself in someone's shoes whose company's future depends on the whims of such a publisher.

And Double Fine may have dropped the ball with Spacebase, but calling Schafer out for the things that you are willing to let slide for Fargo is hypocritical, as far as Broken Age is concerned.

Edit: oh, and Activision didn't fund even a tiny bit of Brütal Legend. The deal was with Vivendi and Activision passed on getting the publishing rights when they merged with Vivendi. Only after EA picked the project up did they suddenly claim that they were still in negotiations with Double Fine about getting those rights, even though they hadn't even bothered to tell DF that they dropped the project previously. Not to mention that Bobby Kotick himself later confirmed that they had, in fact, dropped it.

Nedan on 15/6/2015 at 16:10

I'm going to have to ask you to prove your claim. Otherwise, I'm inclined to call BS. Here are the prominent sources I gathered from...

(http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31110073/#.VX7jjka2ra0) Activision sues to stop Jack Black game
(http://www.shacknews.com/article/59034/activision-sues-to-stop-brutal) Activision Sues To Stop Brutal Legend Release

Both pretty much state that Double Fine was paid $15 million to develop Brutal Legend. Neither one is solid proof but DoubleFine has yet to offer anything to discredit that claim. The only shred that has been given, is that both parties involved decided to settle out of court with the details not being released. The only real details released was this interview from Bobby Kotick:

(http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/08/activisions-kotick-on-brutal-legend-drama-thats-not-really-w/) Activision's Kotick on Brutal Legend drama: 'That's not really what happened'

And no matter how you slice it, settling out of court can look both bad & good for both sides. Do take note... I did say earlier that they might have funded it. As no detailed evidence has ever been released to prove or disprove it other than an interview so I cannot be at all certain. But you seem to fully believe they did not fund anything. So if you have insider knowledge... then by all means... share it with us. Otherwise, I'm going to have to stick to my original comment & once again say that anybody jumping on either side (take note Einstein, that would include anyone defending Activision/Vivendi also by the way :tsktsk:) without knowing the details is a complete & utter fool/idiot/moron.

As for your fetish with Brian Fargo, well personally I have yet to burned by his company. But both of them (yes, I said both Tim & Brian) shouldn't be allowed to write checks that their asses can't cash. But that really wasn't my point for posting about Tim & DoubleFine. My real point was to merely weigh in on the matter as objectively as I could possibly be. I, in fact, offered you the best piece of argument against people that throw flak at Tim Schafer & DoubleFine for Broken Age. Maybe you should re-read what I said in my last post.

Quote Posted by Nedan

Honestly, I believe a lot of the flak aimmed at Tim Schafer & DoubleFine stems from this very game (Spacebase DF-9). Is that said flak justified though? Well unfortunately they (Tim & DoubleFine) haven't done anything of significance for the community to make that said flak they receive unjustified.

Now that doesn't mean all of it is fully justified. But when a customer gets screwed over by a company... they usually b*tch & moan about it as is their right. But a lot of flak directed at DoubleFine seemed to pick up speed shortly after the Spacebase DF-9 debacle... at least from what I could see. Personally, after spending money on Spacebase DF-9, I won't be spending any more money on any DoubleFine Early-Access title again. But that is neither here nor there concerning Broken Age... at least IMO.

Starker on 15/6/2015 at 20:59

One of the articles that you posted proves that Activision didn't fund the project. I've highlighted the relevant part below. But the salient point here is that Activision claimed they were still in negotiations with DF to try to stop Brütal Legend from being released. If they really were after the money Vivendi invested in it, they would have just asked for compensation. But that wasn't what they did. Instead, they tried to stop the release, which would have destroyed DF. So they were being unnecessarily dicks about it.

And if Activision had a leg to stand on, do you really think they would have settled out of court for a fraction of the Vivendi money?

Quote:

"Vivendi had advanced him like 15 or 20 million dollars," Kotick explained. "He missed all the milestones, missed all the deadlines, as Tim has a reputation of doing." As the massive merger between Activision and Vivendi wore on, Kotick said he had very little on-the-ground knowledge of Brutal Legend.

"I don't know if it was a decision not to publish it. I don't even really know where we were in the negotiation and discussions about what was going to happen to the product. Unbeknownst to everybody, they didn't have the rights to sell. So all we'd said is, 'Look: If you go and do a deal with somebody else, pay back the money that was advanced to you.' That was all we were looking for. We ultimately got a fraction of the money that had been advanced to him, and as far as I know, that was the end of it. But I don't even know if there was a lawsuit from my recollection."

Of course, you got to keep in mind that it is Kotick trying to whitewash the incident and make them look good. "Oh, I don't even know whether we were in the negotiations." "I don't know if there was a lawsuit." You're the damn CEO of the company. It's your job to know these things.

Quote Posted by Nedan

But a lot of flak directed at DoubleFine seemed to pick up speed shortly after the Spacebase DF-9 debacle... at least from what I could see.

Nah, the accusations that Schafer is a "scammer" and that "Kotick was right" were thrown out long before Spacebase was even a thing. You should have seen the articles, comments and forum threads when it was announced that Broken Age would be delivered in two acts. And people are mostly still going on about Broken Age, as you can see from what EvaUnit posted. In comparison, Spacebase received much less media coverage and discussion. If it wasn't for all the Broken Age drama, it would have barely made headlines. Which is a shame, because as far as Spacebase is concerned, it would be deserved, from what I can tell.

Nedan on 15/6/2015 at 22:44

I think I need to wash my eyes. I can't believe another human can read that sentence & miss everything said entirely. Do you even understand what Kotick said with that quote? Reread it again.

That entire paragraph clearly says he was advanced $15 to $20 million. When DoubleFine went to EA, they then threatened legal action to get back the money they invested (the same $15 to $20 million). They were able to recoup some of their loss but not all.

What that tells me clearly is that they did fund part of Brutal Legend in the beginning. That they were in the right to initially threaten taking DoubleFine to court.

As for your question about why they settled... are you even reading anything I'm writing? I said that can look bad for both sides... but let me clarify on that. With a big corporate entity like Activision/Vivendi, the bottom line is money. Nothing else matters at all. A long dragged out court case would mean losing lots more money. So settling is always preferred. When dealing with a small company like DoubleFine, they may be aware that Tim & Co. may have almost no money left to actually pay back the advancement & a full blown lawsuit would probably mean that they would never see any of their money returned at all. So they may have agreed to a percentage of the profits to at least recoup some of the money. But without knowing the details of the settlement, this is all conjecture.

Another thing that is made clear by that last article is that DoubleFine's initial deal was with Vivendi before their merger. Not with Activision or Bobby Kotick at all. So that also lends credence to Kotick stating that he had no knowledge of the deal DoubleFine had with Vivendi except for one meeting he merely sat in on at the end. So for Tim to basically throw Kotick under the bus seems extremely rude. That is also why I said that he might have been too quick to throw someone else under the bus before even accepting any blame.

You see, I have no real issue with DoubleFine other than Spacebase DF-9. I have absolutely no intentions of trusting them on Early-Access ever again as they were willing to toss me & everyone else who bought the game out of faith under the bus as it were. To me, it says they will be willing to do it again & that they don't really care what their fans think.

The sad part is that DoubleFine may never be able to go back to kickstarter due to the way they handled Spacebase DF-9 in my eyes as kickstarter is based on trust. Sure they were able to get their original kickstarter finished... but that was at the cost of another project of theirs & destroying the faith that was invested in that one. With Brian Fargo, I don't cast stones in his direction or even call him out on his short comings with mismanagement because basically I still have faith in him & his company.

Another thing to keep in mind is that one of the reasons people toss a lot of flak at Tim Schafer & DoubleFine is that Broken Age is the first kickstarter of its type. No big named studio ever attempted to try crowd funding a possible Triple A title before on such a large scale. Being the first in line is not always the best as you're going to upset a lot of people along the way & that every small error made will be turned into a mountain. Tim should have been well aware of this but he still proceeded with the crowd funding. That is also another reason why Tim & DoubleFine get called out on mistakes as they were setting the precedent for crowd funding & yet the other developers were merely following suit. Now that doesn't justify all of the flak, but you have to take each complaint with a grain of salt.

Starker on 15/6/2015 at 23:01

Quote Posted by Nedan

Another thing that is made clear by that last article is that DoubleFine's initial deal was with Vivendi before their merger. Not with Activision or Bobby Kotick at all.

That was my entire point. This wasn't Activision's project to begin with. And it is pretty clear from the later statements that they did drop it, contrary to what they claimed at the time.

Also, you're not looking at this from Schafer's perspective at all. When Double Fine's future was in the line after Vivendi had stopped giving them payments, Activision then dropped the project without bothering even telling Double Fine. DF then managed to find someone else to pick it up only for Activision to c*ckblock them. That is a dick move any way you look at it. If Activision really was just after the Vivendi investment, why did they try to stop the game from being published? They didn't have to do that, especially at the cost of ruining another company. And they didn't just threaten to take DF to court, they sued them. Only after the judge ruled that they wouldn't delay the game from being published did they settle out of court.

Also, note that I'm not defending Spacebase in any shape or form. I'm only talking about Broken Age and the way people misrepresent it.

Also also, in your character assassination you neglect to mention that Schafer's remarks were made at a time that he believed wasn't a part of the interview and that he later apologised for those remarks. Instead, you try to make it out as if Schafer was deliberately trying to put all blame on Kotick, and that it wasn't just something he said out of frustration following a very stressful time.

Nedan on 16/6/2015 at 01:08

Activision, according to Bobby Kotick, had little involvement in Brutal Legend. But Vivendi did have a stake in it & wasn't about to let the money go quietly. And since they were still in the beginings of the merger, I don't believe Kotick had any real say on the matter. But this is all still conjecture.

Let me put it in another way from a personal stand point... If I invest money in a product to have it made, regardless of whether it gets completed or not, I own part of that product based upon the money I invested. And if I found out that the developer took the product to a competitor, I would also naturally sue his unrighteous arse & his tiny company into the ground for eternity...

[video=youtube;BdvUR67nZs0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdvUR67nZs0[/video];)

...unless compensated in some way.

Inline Image:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Drevil_million_dollars.jpg

That is not a dick move... that is just simple business. Covering your assets & protecting all of your investments is simple business tactics 101. So what Activision/Vivendi merely did was what any company would've done if put in the same situation.

But on the flip side of that coin, what Tim Schafer & DoubleFine did... would also be what any small company would've done to protect their employees.

The only real dick-ish thing done throughout this whole affair was the mud slinging. While Kotick's remarks came across as incredibly mature IMHO. Tim's comments came across as totally juvenile & extremely immature to me. And I unfortunately have very little tolerance for that sort of behavior from any company. If you're going to do that, you are in the wrong line of work... period. We already have enough blasted idiots like Cliff Bleszinski & Derek Smart as it is without adding to that pile.

Also, with Tim Schafer's remark, I was aware that he (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/schafer-i-need-to-keep-my-mouth-shut) tried or attempted to apologize. I say tried because it came across as extremely half-hearted & very disingenuous... as if he was more disappointed with the fact that he got caught saying it. Why would the remark not being believed to be a part of the interview matter in the slightest? If you said it... own up to it & apologize. Don't offer up excuses & don't compare the guy, that you just insulted, to Darth Vader while you are trying to apologize. It looks extremely bad & is in very poor taste.

Starker on 16/6/2015 at 01:24

Just because a company can do something doesn't mean that they should do it. Otherwise, I could claim that DF was right in stopping the support and development of Spacebase, because that's just what businesses do, right? If a game doesn't sell, from a business standpoint it's best to cut your losses and stop throwing good money after bad. But that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do from a moral standpoint.

Yes, companies exist to make money, but so what? So do drug cartels. The pursuit of money is not some inherently noble effort that should be respected. In the case of Activision, we have the business interests of one company on one hand, but on the other hand we have the fate of another company and its employees.

And as we saw, it wasn't just about the money. If it was just about the money, they would've settled with asking for compensation, but they went all out and forced DF to countersue them which resulted in them walking away with nothing.

Edit: Also, it would have made little sense for them to try to stop DF from getting the money from Brütal Legend, because then DF would have had the money to pay them without going bankrupt.