What an amazing game. - by Spaztick
Spaztick on 19/8/2007 at 02:16
Quote Posted by negativeliberty
Heh, try: America is moving more towards a
fascist society where the corporate elite run and spin everything with the label of
democracy and China is moving towards
socialism with the label of capitalism.
China accepted decades ago that communism wasn't enough to achieve even self-sufficiency, so instead they adopted capitalism, in the hopes of one day achieving the socialist ideal through capitalist means. I wouldn't say they're moving to a democracy, hell, even private land-ownership would be a big step forward at the moment, but massive amounts of people are moving from lower to middle class rapidly. Don't even get me started on the US.
I suggest you learn what those big words mean before you throw them around like that ;)
"America is moving more towards a Communist society" <--- Priceless.
BTW, how exactly did you come to these conclusions from playing Deus Ex? I'm curious to know. Sounds like you need to replay it, A LOT, which shouldn't be a problem, I've been (re)playing it since it came out :thumb:
Yea, I had a brain fart and mixed fascism with communism. I mean it could be communism since corporations have a large influence over the government (although corporations don't rule America), but yours was more accurate. As for China, I think Hong Kong really boosted China's lean toward capitalism, though much of western China is still pretty poor.
DaveW on 20/8/2007 at 00:46
Quote Posted by Spaztick
That being said I haven't gotten to IW yet, anyone know which ending was considered the "canon" ending?
Helios. The other endings are mixed in with pre-level texts (i.e in the loading screen you get tips and stuff), but if you ignore that the other 2 endings didn't happen it still makes sense.
negativeliberty on 21/8/2007 at 10:39
Quote Posted by Spaztick
Yea, I had a brain fart and mixed fascism with communism. I mean it could be communism since corporations have a large influence over the government (although corporations don't rule America), but yours was more accurate.
Np. Actually you did it again, sorry for being so nitpicky ;) Fascism is where corporations and the state become so intertwined that they're indistinguishable (or corporatism, in the US this can be seen in the fact that it's more often than not very unclear by whom public officials are paid - obvious example being Cheney's yearly paycheck by Halliburton, which exceeds his paycheck by the government by several factors - giving way to the question where his first loyalty lies, but that's just, quite literally, the tip of the ice-berg). Another example would be the fact that the CIA aides big corporations in their corporate espionage of foreign companies and their proprietary technologies (the Boeing-Airbus incident for instance).
People usually primarily associate fascism with authoritarianism, but actually corporatism is the 'defining' factor of fascism (from Latin 'fascis' - group/bundle, the bundling of state and corporation). It is then, in essence, also anti-communistic (since the two clearly can't co-exist).
Quote Posted by Spaztick
As for China, I think Hong Kong really boosted China's lean toward capitalism, though much of western China is still pretty poor.
You mean when China got HK back, they went on the capitalist fast-track? Nah, they've been on that road since the early eighties (they knew the USSR would collapse, so it was decided that they would take a different heading towards the communist/socialist ideal - through capitalism).
Yes it is, and what you're saying makes no sense whatsoever. Corporations are gaining power while unions are being stripped of power (or what little they had left), the office of the president has become an authoritarian wing clinging to the state secrets act, classifying everything and shredding the rest and abusing military power for their own political ends, nationalism is rampant (it usually comes packaged as; "if you're not with us, then you're..." etc.), media corporations are afraid to step on the government's toes because they might be denied "access" in the future etc. all different sides of the same coin.
All forms of communism are irreconcilable with fascism since they seek to remove class through common shared means of production (not to mention most seek to bring about a stateless world). In a fascist society, civil corporations (populated by technocrats and rich businessmen) rule, run & own all means of production - there is no in-between cross-breed, no synthesis. I can't say I can recognize ANY communist facets in the US. You would argue that such a contradiction is inherent to dialectic though?
I understand the dialectic, but I don't agree with the dialectic-philosophical framework of thought, it has proven to be far too rhetorical for actual application outside philosophy. If you're suggesting that the US will become a fascist state before adopting communism and finally settling with a synthesis of the two, then you're proving my point for me - the US is heading for a fascist dystopia. What happens afterwards is anyone's guess - does it shoot off in the other direction and become an anarchistic socialist society before settling with a synthesis? Well, that would be perfectly fitting of dialectic theory, but there's the problem right there - the dialectic framework doesn't apply to anything outside of rhetorical philosophy. The real-life socio-political situation is much too complicated to be viewed in terms of Confucianistic platitudes. Still, they help us make sense of the world (or at least comfort us by letting us think we're making sense of the world), but that's beside the point.
Many European countries are socialist countries at heart - but the US is pretty much the exact opposite. I wouldn't call it a fascist state just yet, but they're getting there very promptly.
Spaztick on 22/8/2007 at 06:19
Now that would make an interesting game, where corporations run by a secret elite group of people use their power to take over the world. But! people rebel against this new fascism and start a rebellion, then you come along as some type of supercop who's caught in the middle of it all.
I'd call it..Apo Mechanes Theos.
Spaztick on 22/8/2007 at 20:59
Aha...I think I saw a reference to the Holy Trinity. Where Harvey Smith said that JC was supposed to be a decendent or an allusion to Jesus Christ (which in the game we see he was cloned from Paul, so that's out), you still have Icarus Daedalus and JC merging into one being, though they are still separate.
Interesting!
Oskar Cruo on 23/8/2007 at 08:28
I finished IW only and only because it was based on Deus Ex, but it was absolutely nothing in common. It's completely different game.
It's not that bad, it had it's moment and the mood was ok.. but that's all. It's just ok. I would have rather edited the characters and left out the Deus Ex title away.
Kalit on 31/8/2007 at 03:01
I still think IW gets way too much hate. It's a good game. Hell, I'ld say it's a great game. Compared to Deus Ex, yes, not nearly as good. But I think it's still easily better than most games still.
Alai912 on 1/9/2007 at 10:07
Yeah... I pretty much gave up playing it the first time I got it, disappointment was an understatement. I decided to re-install the game after couple of years of non-playing hiatus, trying to concentrate not to think of it being a sequel to one of the greatest games made, but just enjoy it for what it is and it has not been so bad at all. It's definitely one of the above average games I've played so far. :thumb:
