King Ronald on 29/6/2002 at 17:23
This thread is for discussion on the topic of new weapon/items ideas for Deus Ex 2.
Picasso on 30/6/2002 at 00:00
I'll be happy as long as there's a good assault rifle. Something like:
Inline Image:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/m16a2.jpg Or
Inline Image:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/sig550_2.jpgOr
Inline Image:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/hk-g3.jpgOooooh yeah.
Something heavy and unwieldy, not practical for close-quarters indoor combat, but still very powerful and accurate, ideal for longer-ranges. With semi-auto, burst and full-auto settings. Something that will punch through doors and (some) walls.
I'm not saying that it should be modelled after one of those three I posted, but those are excellent examples of what an assault rifle can be.
Phydeaux on 30/6/2002 at 07:10
That bottom gun isn't in production for many years.
My opinions:
I was always amazed by the similarities between the assault rifle in DX1, and the OICW being developed by Alliant Techsystems / Heckler & Koch for the US military. Now, while the good people at ISA goofed on the ammo/damage of their assault rifle, it definitly hit a parallel with what seems to be the future of military firearms. I would like to see the same ideas in DX2.
I was a big fan of the mini-crossbow in DX1. I hope it makes a comeback in DX2. Also, I'd love it if there was a bolt with a wire attached, much like rope arrows in the Thief series.
As stated in other threads, I hope that suppressing ("silencing") a firearm in DX2 follows real-world physics.
And above all else, I do not want to be able to carry a huge guided rocketlauncher BFG in 2 hands and still somehow be able to climb a ladder.
Picasso on 30/6/2002 at 07:44
Quote:
That bottom gun isn't in production for many years.
Yeah, but I still think it looks much better than the G36. I was really thinking about it from an aesthetic standpoint. My personal favorite is the Sig550. It just looks so badass.
I agree about the ladder thing. IMO, two handed weapons should be a no-no when climbing ladders, but one handed weapons (knife, pistol, crossbow) should be usable with a few penalties, as long as you hold still to use them.
Anyway, as far as items go, I'd like to see a few more grenade choices. For example:
- A flashbang. Toss it into a room and BAM it blinds, deafens and disorients anyone in there. In the Rainbow Six series they're used to help take out enemies that have hostages, and in DX they could be used the same way if hostages are taken. However, if you're playing a pacifist-type you could toss one into a room to dizzy up an enemy, then run in and prod him (or hit him with a tranq dart). Basically, a way to nonlethally subdue an enemy without giving him the chance to shoot you.
Let's say it causes lack of sight and hearing for a few seconds to anyone in it's radius, depending on how close to it they are and whether or not they're facing it, and even after it wears off there's penalties to movement and shooting (they're too dizzy to really aim efficiently or reload quickly, etc.)
This might be covering pretty much the same ground as the gas grenade. I don't know, I just thought I'd throw it out there.
- A smoke grenade. Can be used as a sniper blind, to shield yourself from aimed enemy gunfire while retreating. Additionally, the smoke (let's just say it's nanotechnological smoke) will block thermal vision. It's an excellent way to mask yourself from cameras or bots, too. Although there IS the obvious drawback that it's practically shouting out to enemy AI's "Hey! There are people with smoke grenades over here!". It's not exactly a subtle tool. The only real use a stealthy player might find for it would be as a big distraction (especially outdoors, where smoke would carry a long way).
King Ronald on 30/6/2002 at 12:14
In Metal Gear Solid, Snake had these things called "Chaff" grenades that knocked out all the electronics in a medium-sized radius for a while. Might be useful for stealthy players.
Perhaps Denton could have some kind of motion tracker or radar to look for enemies. Just imagine going into some run-down warehouse, and hearing the beep beep beep get louder as packs of Karkians hunt you down....
I think the flamethrower should definately return - however since it's now so far into the future, I think the guns should all be getting smaller - just like how when mobile phones were first invented they were the size of a large breezeblock, and weighed loads, and nowadays they fit into the palm of your hand. The new flamethrower could have a tiny fuel tank, filled with self-replicating flammible whatever-flamethrowers-use-for-fuel-based nanites. They replicate like mad when under high temperatures, so you could have a gun that shoots them into a flame, creating the flame-thrower effect, and the nanites further down the tank feel the heat and fill up the tank again. Infinite ammo! Low weight! Highly concealable! The weapon of the future! Highly unrealistic, I know, but c'mon - sounds good, doesn't it?
I agree that the assault rifle was a might too puny. Since it seems you all have lots of different types of assault rifles you would like to have in the sequel, perhaps there could be six or more assault rifles in Deus Ex 2. They could all have different pros and cons, such as clip size, damage, range etc. In fact, I think there should be lots of different gun types for everything - it always seemed a bit odd that no matter where J.C went all over the world, he only ever found two pistols - 9mm and stealth. This is definately unrealistic.
Some type of gas mask would be useful if attacked by someone with gas grenades...
Different body armour could be worn to protect against various types of damage, with the more heavier the suit the more stuff you could carry and the slower you'd move. That way ninja players could have a light body armour with room for only two or three weapon/items and walking tanks could carry enough ammo to sink the Titanic, but could barely jump.
Does anyone think the plasma rifle should be dropped? And, for that matter, the PS20. The first one takes up loads of room, you don't get much ammo for it and it never seemed that effective without high heavy weapons skill, and the latter I always missed with. Is it just my poor aim or what?
Dragonclaw on 30/6/2002 at 14:19
You DO have chaffs. They're called EMP grenades, though ;)
I like the idea of a gas mask, that sounds useful and (for the people who need it) also very realistic.
About the weapons... I see what you mean. But personally, I wouldn't want to run around with 20 guns, something like...
"OK, it's 32°, that rules out that one and this one... But I'm sniping, so I could use one of those five... On the other hand, wind comes from southwest... and it's rainy... Darn! I need the rifle I left 2 levels behind!" :cheeky: :devil:
I liked DX1... ok, maybe two or three rifles and pistols wouldn't harm, but don't make it that for every place in the game, there is one gun to use.
And for the PS20... I never had problems with targeting that. I mean, it's a 100%, right from where you get it, so... The only problem was I never used it, because it only had one shot, and I didn't want to waste that one... (old economics guy that I am ;) )
So, I ended up with 1 inv. slot less the whole game ;):cheeky:
King Ronald on 30/6/2002 at 17:22
Well, heh, I'd never be technical enough to want weapons where you have to think about the wind and the rain altering your shot - that just isn't fun, it's too many things to think about. I prefer point and click, with a satisfying recoil and mass damage where my crosshair is. When I said different types of rifle or whatever, I just meant the guns getting more destructive, or less-but-with-a-bigger-clip, or using different ammo types. In Counterstrike, there are about seven or eight rifles that you can use - each one with different characteristics and look and so on. I meant something like that, a catagory of weapons with multiple guns in each one, not just one Assault Rifle which is the only one that exists in the entire world. If you have different guns and things, then if the developers screw up and make one of the assault rifles rubbish (in someones opinion) then at least there are five other ones you can toy around with. And it would make a change to see government troopers running at you with different types of guns - not just the same bloomin animation of that small silver assault rifle.
Also, you could even have that with the items. For example, one type of multi-tool would work better against a different companys security system. What I mean is, if you use a "Sonyo Securi-beat Multi-tool" on a Sonyo corporation security grid, it won't work - because obviously the company would make sure the device couldn't harm THEM. However, if you used a "Necrosoft Peacemaker-180 Multi-tool" on a Sonyo security system, it would be v. effective - a bit of corporate warfare going on, you know? Since the new Bio-mod system has black market version Bio-mods, you could buy black market guns from the smugglers. Imagine Denton buying a top-of-the-line Omni-Kill Blaster Pistol from a shifty trader, then getting into a fire-fight and finding his gun doesn't work, and he's been sold a dud - after escaping you could try and track down the dodgy dealer and find out which parts of his stock actually work, on him!
Genrally though, having lots of different types of objects, each with different properties makes the game more tactical and interesting - it certainly stops you from going, oh, I'll have to take this gun, even though I don't like it, because its the only gun I can get of this type in the game, and I need a shotgun/rifle/pistol to clear out the next room.
(and yeah, I should have spotted the EMP grenades were Chaff. Silly me.)
Dragonclaw on 30/6/2002 at 20:05
I wasn't against what you said, we agree on the weapons. It's just that you can do things not enough, and you can also overdo stuff. They have to be careful there...
Hmm...
"a top-of-the-line Omni-Kill Blaster Pistol"... Why do I have in mind the sound of a radio playing? ;)
Phydeaux on 1/7/2002 at 05:34
I'll give a simple list of what I want in the way of weapons.
Empty hands. I don't expect Paul to be a kung fu master or anything, but I would love the option of being able to take down enemies without needing a weapon. In DX1 there was several places where brandishing a weapon was necessary, but caused alarm and panic
Lethal/non-lethal melee weapons. Pretty much the same as in DX1. There were several ways to take down an enemy both simply incapacitating (riot prod, baton, pepper spray), and killing (crowbar, knife, swords). Carry this over to DX2.
Pistol. The old standby. Easily concealable, and quite deadly. Since DX2 takes place several years after DX1, I wouldn't be opposed to an energy weapon, but a lump of lead going hundereds of miles per hour is always effective.
Submachine gun. Uses the same ammo as the pistol, just shoots it faster. Less concealable then the pistol though.
Sniper rifle. None. See below.
Assault rifle. High power, high range, high rate of fire. Should reflect modern advances in assault weaponry; ie: Select fire, including semi-auto, full auto, and burst (3 shots). Also, pretty much every modern assault rifle can be fitted with a scope (or even has one integrated), and in semi-auto, can be used as a sniper rifle effective for at least a few hundered meters. In my opinion, having a sniper rifle in DX2 would be pretty much redundant, unless it was one of those bigass suckers (.50BMG) that can shoot down airplanes. Integrated grenade launcher is also a must. This time however, give us impact (bean bag) grenades for ranged, non-lethal takedowns.
Rocket Launcher: A definite must. I see no reason to improve on the GEP gun in DX1. Just give us something airborne to shoot at.
Flamethrower. Sure, why not.
Large energy rifle. Sure. Just make it more effective then the plasma rifle in DX1. That thing was more a novelty then anything.
Mini-crossbow. Must have. Ranged non-lethal takedown is important for the pacifists.
Grenades. Needs little improvement over DX1. A timer, or remote detonation (I think this is already planned) would be nice.
Picasso on 1/7/2002 at 05:35
Let me start with a quote by Warren Spector taken from (
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/game_design/19990115/remodeling_01.htm) here:
Quote:
Make sure each weapon and each enemy is radically different than all others. There's no point offering a 1911 Colt, a Glock, and a Browning Hi-Power unless there's some major game play difference between them. Hey, they're all automatic pistols and serve about the same purpose in the real world. In your game, players won't know that the stocks feel different, the weight is different, and so on. And tiny variations in accuracy and kickback and the like probably won't be noticeable even if you bother trying to simulate them. Don't bother. Just put one of them in your game and be done with it. If your game fiction can support it, make certain weapons particularly useful against certain enemies. Weapon differences must be obvious and instantly apparent.
Keeping that in mind, onto my suggestion.
First, make a few basic weapons. For example:
Standard Pistol - Your average, run-of-the-mill, semi-automatic sidearm.
Submachine Gun - An automatic weapon which utilizes the same ammo as the pistol, but has superior range, accuracy and damage. Ideal for close-quarters combat where lots of firepower is needed. Can fire semi-auto, burst or full-auto.
Assault Rifle - An automatic weapon with superb range, accuracy and damage, but considerably larger than a submachine gun and not well-suited to indoor encounters. If set to semi-auto and equipped with a scope or other sighting system, can be used as a relatively close-range sniping tool. Can fire semi-auto, burst or full-auto.
Sniper Rifle - Built to engage targets at extreme ranges with well-aimed fire. Very useful in assassination scenarios, or simply to eliminate as many targets as possible in an enemy-controlled area before moving in yourself. Single shot or semi-auto only.
Machine Gun - A very "Heavy Weapon", designed to provide sustained and powerful fire support, usually in a defensive position. I'm not suggesting anything like Ah-nold with a minigun, but something that is really only good to use in a prone position, placed on a bipod. COULD be carried and fired, but incredibly impractical and near useless. Full-auto only.
Shotgun - Offers high firepower at close range, often used to efficiently blow down doors, and people. Generally doesn't penetrate very much, so you usually don't have to worry about liquifying grandma in the apartment next door, and the spread lets you not worry quite so much about accuracy.
That's a good starter list. There are a few other, more exotic ones that I'd like to see (an EMP Rifle like in System Shock 2 would be cool), but for the moment I'm sticking more to traditional projectile firearms.
So, now we have that basic list. A series of guns that have different perks and drawback, and are all different and unique and special.
Next, make weapon modifications visible. If you add a sound suppressor (silencer) or a scope or a flashlight to your gun, then you can see it attached to the weapon in your hand, etc. This is important.
Now, make weapon modifications into a system like augmentations. You don't just throw them all onto your favorite gun and be done with it, instead you have to choose between them, and decide which ones suit your purposes and which ones don't. And they all have varied and interesting perks, such as increasing your range, or allowing your gun to fire underwater.
Here's an example. I'll use the Assault Rifle for this scenario, since it's my favorite kind of weapon, and also very versatile.
---Begin Example---
You finish the shootout in Hell's Kitchen and grab an Assault Rifle off a dead UNATCO trooper. "Rock on!" you say... but wait! This Assault Rifle is factory-new, vanilla, plain-jane. In other words, it's boring. "Dude!" you say. "My Assault Rifle sucks ass!". But never fear! You're within just a short walking distance of smuggler's humble abode.
So you head on over to smuggler's. "Hey Smuggler!" you say, "What's the dilly-o on leet mods for this rifle?" "Whiznatch!" Smuggler exclaims. "I got a lightweight bolt for that Assault Rifle! It has less density and absorbs less recoil, but it spins fast as hell and spews out them bullets like a mofo!" Now you have to make a choice. Do you want to keep your current, heavier bolt that fires slowly but has less recoil, or do you want to swap it out for a lightweight bolt that nearly doubles your rate of fire but suffers from heavier recoil?
Well, after thinking about it for a few beers, you decide that you'd prefer to fill the room with lead rather than "aiming", and you buy the lightweight bolt. "Well shiznit!" You exclaim. "I still gots an assload of cash left!". "Mizflatch!" Smuggler responds, "Lookee here at this integrally suppressed barrel! It gradually bleeds off the propellant gases expelled when firing, slowing your bullets to below the speed of sound while simultaneously muffling the gunshot! Commonly referred to as a "Silencer"! Zowwee! You take a moment to think. This "Silencer" dealy sure could make yo cappin' ass a lot more subtle, but there are the added disadvantages of decreased accuracy, range and damage. What to do, what to do?
Eventually you reach the conclusion that although waxin' foo's silently would be pretty damn cool, you just can't let go of the Fear Of God your roaring weapon puts into your enemies on full-auto. And then there are also the other disadvantages of a suppressed weapon, but hey, let's not kid ourselves. You just really like the noise.
Smuggler says to you "Gizyatch! Before you be skippin' out, you wanna buy up this explosive Assault Rifle ammo? It blows up when hitting your target to char-broil him, and all the sound it makes really don't matter since your rifle be so friggin' loud anyhow." You decide against it for now, but maybe after you knock over a few more ATM's.
---End example---
Gee, that was tiring, but I think you get my point. You can have many variants of bolts, barrels, scopes, ammo, and even other neat toys like weapon-mounted flashlights or laser designators or grenade launchers. You could have a secondary ammo port, which allows you to have two magazines loaded at a time, which doubles your ammo capacity but also doubles your reload time. By allowing you to customize your weapons you can tailor your gun specifically to your own style of play (thereby increasing characterization).
Moreover, if you want to get rid of that "everybody carries the exact same assault rifle" feeling, then the type of rifle can be dependent on the person carrying it. For example, your average UNATCO troop may have a standardized, straight-off-the-assembly-line "vanilla" rifle, but a special-ops type of troop will have a suppressed version, and a sentry standing watch in a tower will have one with a nightvision scope, and they'll all look different. Or perhaps a civilian walking the streets at night will carry a non-modified pistol for personal protection, while a night-security guy will have a flashlight attachment, but a special-ops dude will have a tricked out pistol with armor-piercing rounds, a suppressor, laser sight, recoil absorber and anything else he can fit on it.
Another suggestion: Let us carry more than one weapon of the same type. This way, if for example I'm a character built around Assault Rifles, then I can carry three of them, each optimized for different things. I could have one with a heavy bolt, extended accuracy-enhancing barrel and high-zoom scope intended for long-range firefights or sniping. Then I could have another one with a suppressor and close-range scope for stealth situations. And finally, a rifle with a lightweight bolt and secondary ammo port for when I just want to clear out a room in a hurry.
And you could incorporate the whole black-market concept into modifications, too. I think that an insane rate of fire would fall neatly into that "illegal" category, as would high-capacity magazines, and many types of sound and flash suppressors.
Oh yes, like I mentioned earlier:
- An EMP rifle. Just like the one from System Shock 2, it can disable cameras, turrets, bots, etc. but it has no effect on organic tissue. Although I suppose it would suck away bioelectric energy, if it's still around in DX2. And instead of magazines, it would use propietary batteries, each with enough charge for, say, 5 shots. It's not really a heavy weapon, more like the size of an assault rifle (think the phaser rifle in Star Trek), but it is rather rare and unique, so the ammo is hard to come by.
I'm over halfway to the maximum permitted length, so I'd better stop. I hope my ramblings made sense.
EDIT: A few typos, but I'm sure there are many more I missed.
EDIT #2: A few more typos. Clarified Machine Gun section.
