quinch on 8/8/2008 at 08:56
Mega spoilers the last four posts. The main plot is a whodunit :erm:
EDIT: Ah right. Might want to give a warning on the thread header.
Scots Taffer on 8/8/2008 at 08:58
Yeah, just realised I can't really effectively give warning for an image.
Linked instead.
Though it should be noted we're dropping spoiler bombs all over the shop in our discussions, so it's a little moot...
Ah well I've now gone back and spoilered any reference to ... well, you know who. :)
Thirith on 8/8/2008 at 09:07
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
Hm, I definitely don't read his reaction like that...
SPOILER IMAGE ALERT (toned down to link)
(
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5483/rorschachux1.jpg)
His comment about "another body amongst foundations" sounds a little sarcastic... right?
He did call the actions "evil"... right?
You do see that he's
crying... right?
Absolutely. [spoiler]At the same time, he goes from "Must tell the world" to "Kill me, now!" within a few seconds. I think that Rorschach/Kovacs is massively conflicted but not necessarily consciously aware of it. He's basically giving up. Of course he wouldn't have a chance against Dr Manhattan to begin with, but Rorschach doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wouldn't at least put up a fight if he was 100% certain that he was doing the right thing. He's basically saying: "This is evil and I must tell the world. <beat> But <sarcastically> you must kill me to protect Veidt's utopia. <straight> So kill me."
Is he crying for the people who died? And if so, is it Rorschach crying or Kovacs? In what he says and does, Rorschach doesn't seem to have much (if any) sympathy for the world at large, but he's got very clear ideas of what is right and what is wrong. I think that in the scene you've posted he's acknowledging, whether he's aware of it or not, that his stark, black-and-white view of the world (represented by his mask) isn't really adequate any more. Perhaps he's also crying about that - mourning the clarity he can no longer fully believe in.[/spoiler]
Scots Taffer on 8/8/2008 at 09:15
Quote Posted by Thirith
Absolutely.
At the same time, he goes from "Must tell the world" to "Kill me, now!" within a few seconds. I think that Rorschach/Kovacs is massively conflicted but not necessarily consciously aware of it.Yeah, as I said, quite the dichotomy.
Quote Posted by Thirith
Is he crying for the people who died? And if so, is it Rorschach crying or Kovacs? In what he says and does, Rorschach doesn't seem to have much (if any) sympathy for the world at large, but he's got very clear ideas of what is right and what is wrong. I think that in the scene you've posted he's acknowledging, whether he's aware of it or not, that his stark, black-and-white view of the world (represented by his mask) isn't really adequate any more. Perhaps he's also crying about that - mourning the clarity he can no longer fully believe in.Excellent interpretation and again, I feel one of many. I personally take it to be both
grief at the unfolding events and the loss of life, grief at "good" letting "evil" win, and yes, I see it as the crystalisation of Rorschach - the compartmentalised dignity and humanity of Kovacs - into Kovacs psyche again, as evidenced by his ability to remove the mask and face "good", which has inherently become "evil", the rules have changed beyond which he has control, he does "give up" however I don't see the depressed misery-guts Kovacs that's finally chucked in the towel, I see the final core of humanity standing firm and testing the resolve of the infinitely powerful Manhattan.Thirith on 8/8/2008 at 09:25
Good points, and the comic definitely allows for a range of interpretations of the characters and their motivations. Some of what I wrote earlier probably also comes from my own view of the world - being a pinko leftist do-gooder, I sympathise somewhat with Rorschach's comfortably stark view of things but ultimately believe that he's a reactionary fanatic who fails to accept that the world is shades of grey. Whatever causes his tears at the end, this is probably where I like him most as a person (as a character he rocks throughout, but that doesn't mean I *like* him) because he's conflicted. Utter conviction is something that bothers and worries me because I personally think the only intellectually and ethically honest thing one can do is constantly challenge one's own convictions. But that's just me. :D
I just had a thought, namely that in a way Rorschach is a Frank Miller character made real, or perhaps rather filtered through Alan Moore's point of view (which, I believe, is pretty much the opposite of Miller in many ways).
quinch on 10/8/2008 at 02:30
He was radicalized by crime. I remember that one brief flashback scene in a meeting when he appears to be quite reasonable with everyone but he actually comes across as ineffectual and weak. I doubt he realized what he was in for when he first put on that silly face cloth.
I am looking forward to seeing his great escapes immensely. I love the improvised bloodbath, Silence of the Lambs meets Leon thing he keeps doing :o
Yell Piranha on 14/8/2008 at 15:15
This thread encouraged me to pick up the book for the first time. I havent really read any other graphic novels so it took a bit of time to adjust to the story telling style but once I got into the method I really enjoyed it (although the who dunnit is fairly predictable).
Now I just have to go back and re-read it so that I can properly understand certain bits I'm not yet sure about.
Gingerbread Man on 15/8/2008 at 18:04
See, I always thought there was another layer to Rorschach's demise. Everything said so far I agree with, especially Thirith's point about Kovacs suddenly unable to maintain his black-and-white worldview, but I also saw that scene as Rorschach suddenly terrified that Manhattan won't bother to kill him. It's ambiguous: Is Manhattan's hand outstretched prior to snipping a loose end? Is it held out in compassion or sympathy as the blue Godvoice quietly says "Rorschach..."? Manhattan cares as little about Veidt's utopia as he does anything else, especially since he knows (and always has) what happens and how it all ends up. The inevitability of Rorschach's murder is equally obvious to Manhattan, but I aways liked to think that Big Blue was hesitant or apologetic or something human at that moment.
Which I think is kinda the opposite of what Scots said, although the two views are not exclusive in the least. Kovacs staring down the Infinite and daring it to do what must be done (just as Rorschach did, so Kovacs is basically challenging a God to live up to Rorschach's standards) is perfect to nestle alongside the idea that Manhattan is trying to connect with the human in the last second of its life, trying to apologise to a man who -- in other circumstances -- would actually have been a friend. If either of them had been able to have friends. Or something. I'm not sure how to describe what I think, but "poignant" and "martyr" are words that would probably be in there somewhere. And also probably "compassionate" -- it kinda feels that Manhattan and Rorschach both (though in slightly opposite directions) are dipped in compassion in that second before compassion is no longer relevant.
Oh God that was all KINDS of unintelligible. :(
That scene is so complex and beautiful, and those few panels are one of the reasons I read Watchmen over again every once in a while. It's also one of the things that makes me slightly apprehensive about the movie adaptation: That scene should absolutely move people near to tears, for whatever reason.
I'm just a bit worried it'll be interpreted as Manhattan putting Rorschach out of his misery. And that's not even close to what's happening.
ZymeAddict on 18/8/2008 at 10:19
While I can't say I really "liked" Watchmen (I don't go for the whole depressing, moral relativist/nihilistic themes of the story), I certainly appreciate it for what it is.
And I can say with absolute certainty that there is no way in hell that a director like Zach Snider is going to create a good film out of such weighty and nuanced source material.
I would seriously have about as much faith in a Michael Bay adaption of Lord of the Rings.
Thirith on 18/8/2008 at 11:01
Out of interest, Zyme: what would you consider the nihilistic themes of the story? I'd agree that the Comedian is pretty much a nihilist, but I'd also say that he's one of the characters whose perspective is shared least by the book itself.
