Virginia Tech Shooting - 31 dead

steo on 18/4/2007 at 22:31

So what was that about not selling guns to anyone who has had a history of mental illness?

TBE on 18/4/2007 at 22:40

Quote Posted by *Zaccheus*

I still do not understand how people can seriously think that owning hand guns is a viable defence against a dictatorship in the US.

Taffer_Boy_Elvis brought up Iraq.

I'd like to know how effective house-hold guns have been against the US Army, because as far as I can tell, it's the roadside bombs that have had the most impact.

What is your definition of a handgun? I'm a bit confused in the context you have been using the term. Are you talking all small arms guns? Anything like rifles and shotguns down to pistols? A handgun in the US typically means a pistol small enough to be concealed on your person.

Owning small arms, typically anything smaller than a cannon, is a huge deterrent to any government or military. Didn't you see the movie Red Dawn? I know, it's a movie. But is that movie a plausible situation? A group of allies, say China, Iran and North Korea, attack the US. It would be a huge undertaking, but they would make a dent in our military defense. Say they land ground forces and occupy some of the western states. If our military is drawn thin, don't you think a bunch of redneck soldier wannabes would try their hand at getting rid of the outsiders? I know I would. You folks seem to live in this Utopia where your country could never possibly be taken over by insiders or outsiders (ever). History has shown that the world is an unsteady place. It might be steady now in our modern lives, but what lays in the future? Call me paranoid, but I won't live in a society where I cannot live the way that I currently do.

Now, in Iraq, the people with small arms, like AK-47 and such, have been sniping the USA and UK forces periodically. Yeah, bombs have seemed to be much more deadly. Bombs you can leave unattended and they work. If you use small arms to attack a convoy or something, you'll get whacked eventually. You can take out more people with TNT strapped to your chest than if you shoot up a group with small arms fire.

fett on 18/4/2007 at 22:52

Quote:

But this civic psychology, lets call it, of oversimplifying complex processes and institutions until you're always on some slippery slope, two steps away from sandbagging your house (and not that you posess it with great vehemence personally), or fighting some playground gorilla. Well, it's perplexing.
Anyone who looks at the miasma of government and sees only some monolithic horror they have to defend themselves against with deadly force isn't living in reality. Yeah its messy, it goes wrong, it lashes out in dumb ways, yeah third world dictators, yeah nazi Germany, we know. But this whole attitude is supposed to be about civics and citizenship and upholding the tenents of our forefathers and all that. Instead it's so simplistic and stupid that it's actually the absence or avoidance of that.

Muz - I agree. I can definitely see where I'm way too susceptible to this 'civic psychology' and tend to lean in that direction, even though I know better. I think it's partly due to having been in several situations where the authority figure turned out to be the bad guy. I've developed a real strong tendency to look out for me and mine by any means necessary while ignoring the far-reaching implications. Again, I wasn't trying to make an argument in favor of the NRA or anything - just trying to clarify why a population would feel the need to bear arms.

Quote:

fett, so if the americans are allowed guns then the fight is between the not quite so skinny white boy and the 80 pounds heavier, 1.5 feet taller and two years older black guy and his mates.

steo - stop being a fucktard, I said it was a shitty analogy. Can you possibly comment intelligently on something in the preceding 5 paragraphs instead? :rolleyes:

Quote:

Actually the police are an important factor in all this. Each US state does have a group of people who are independent of the military, not directly accountable to the central government, and trained in the use of fire-arms.

Zaccheus - Ok, that's the first rational argument I think I've ever heard in favor of gun control. Between you and Muz, I apparently need to expend some more thought on the issue.

fett on 18/4/2007 at 22:57

From the Yahoo article:

Quote:

A medical examination conducted Dec. 14 found that that Cho's "affect is flat. ... He denies suicidal ideations. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder. His insight and judgment are normal."

And from foxnews:

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State police, meanwhile, revealed that in December, 2005, Cho was declared "mentally ill and in need of hospitalization" and posed "an imminent danger," according to a temporary detention order issued by a Virginia district court.

One more victory for psychology! How fucked up is it that the guy was known as a stalker, wrote disturbing/violent rantings, was considered suicidal, and had been psychologically evaluated, yet "no one saw this coming"? Call it finger pointing if you want, but somebody at VT fucked up big time, and did so repeatedly.

Edit: Sorry for the double post. Where did everyone go?

User123abc on 18/4/2007 at 23:00

Quote Posted by Taffer_Boy_Elvis

Didn't you see the movie Red Dawn? Is that movie a plausible situation? If our military is drawn thin, don't you think a bunch of redneck soldier wannabes would try their hand at getting rid of the outsiders? I know I would. Call me paranoid

You're paranoid. And suffering from a mild heroic delusion. Also, when you look at that Chinese SKS 7.62, you're secretly dreaming of penis.

I'm just saying.

TBE on 18/4/2007 at 23:03

Whatever. Why don't you post under your real nick so we know who you are?

I can't help it that I'm intelligent enough to form an opinion without criticizing everyone else's, and name calling. Go live in your little Utopia land without guns, except for the police and government, and be told how to live your life. They may not be doing it now, but just you wait.

BrokenArts on 18/4/2007 at 23:07

Quote Posted by User123abc

You're paranoid. And suffering from a mild heroic delusion. Also, when you look at that Chinese SKS 7.62, you're secretly dreaming of penis.

I'm just saying.

Quote Posted by Taffer_Boy_Elvis

Whatever. Why don't you post under your real nick so we know who you are?

I think we have our answer. :P
He also brings up grammatical errors, in his pasts posts, his favorite subject.;)

TBE on 18/4/2007 at 23:09

You've got the best guns here BA;)

User123abc on 18/4/2007 at 23:18

Uhh....

Don't read too much into that. Bad joke I guess - probably wrong thread to joke around in, at the least.

I do disagree with you, though, I think that the concept of protecting natural rights by arming the populace - while admirable and probably correct during the time of the Framers - is now technologically obsolete, as others have said. I'm not sure if guns hold any benefit to society or are rather a bane, and I can't say how they would be phased out in that case.

BrokenArts on 18/4/2007 at 23:26

Quote Posted by Taffer_Boy_Elvis

You've got the best guns here BA;)

Hah, hah, hah, I do try. :P