Matthew on 16/4/2010 at 11:06
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
what the actual religion is suggesting. And I've yet to come over a passage of the Bible generally discriminating against homosexuals.
Really? Honestly?
'Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.' (Leviticus 18:22 KJV)
'If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.' (Leviticus 20:13 KJV)
'For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.' (Romans 1:26-27 EMTV)
'Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.' (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 YLT, I think - some controversy over the original Greek word used for sodomites but the above is how it is being translated now)
Beleg Cúthalion on 16/4/2010 at 11:10
The analogy to the event of the actual moon landing is not the actual child abuse but the amount of generalisation and simplification (etc.) brought forth along with the accusations. In both cases the accused has a hard time defending it-/himself because everything is interpreted as tergiversation (nice word BTW). And besides I doubt that a religion (which is an "idea" to make it short) can run a country, and even the institutions at least here in Europe won't, therefore separation of church and state is set too deeply within the people.
So much in fact that in Berlin the people voted against parallel voluntary religious education in school (which was, especially with Islam, set up to avoid some strange backyard education with backyard ideas) in IMHO some sudden urgent need to defend separation of church and state. Maybe they haven't realised yet that this is probably similar to capitalism: Generally not a bad idea but it shouldn't be carried to extremes.
Quote Posted by massimiliano
What?? It's me that I have to learn good manners?
Yes. You curse all the time, you are impolite, obtrusive and fevered while I (above) was just ironic. Oh, and I'm not the first to tell you that, just in case you didn't notice.
Edit: Matthew, yeah, you're right, I probably forgot the OT parts among all the mentions of defluxion. :eww: But in the end I still think the acceptance of people in general outweights (or should 2000 years later outweigh) the homophobia. And (
http://www.huk.org/e/index.htm) these guys probably have more footnotes about it.
Matthew on 16/4/2010 at 11:20
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
And besides I doubt that a religion (which is an "idea" to make it short) can run a country, and even the institutions at least here in Europe won't, therefore separation of church and state is set too deeply within the people.
Did you know that out of (
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2009/0606/1224248154873.html) 2,899 primary schools in the Republic of Ireland, 3,282 are controlled by the Catholic Church?
Beleg Cúthalion on 16/4/2010 at 11:41
Sounds to me as if the state never took over the educational system. Quite far away AFAIK from the intentional akkumulation of power that "trying to run whole countries" suggest.
But if you're into examples: We have app. 37,000 public and 2,700 private schools in Germany ("public" and "private" with their literal meanings, I know there are some differences in the British system), nearly 1,200 are Catholic and 1,134 Protestant. That makes, even if we take both together, about 7% of educational church control.
The video is interesting, I hope the reference to the older times helps to get some fresh wind to the Vatican. But I also hope it won't establish a culture of penalty, I cannot stand those guys around here having "death penalty for child molesters" on their car windows.
Matthew on 16/4/2010 at 12:12
When (
http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/39661) An Phoblacht says that the Church leadership 'stood on the side of the politically and socially powerful' in order to 'promote and protect the church institution and to keep the people in check', you might take it more seriously.
Or perhaps the (
http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/ryle-dwyer/we-allowed-our-democracy-to-be-perverted-by-churchs-control-freaks-107643.html) Irish Examiner, which opines that Ireland allowed itself to be taken over by the Church's 'control freaks'.
Or perhaps (
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/02/26/how_ireland_lost_its_faith) Foreign Policy's American perspective, which posits that '[n]ot so very long ago and for the great majority of Irish people, their Catholicism was synonymous with their national identity. To be Irish was to be Catholic'.
I should say at this point that I'm not Catholic, so I would be seen as being on the 'other side' of the sectarian divide in Ireland. I would also say that the traditional position of the Catholic Church in Irish life today is much reduced from where it was until about the 1960s.
However, my point was more that to paint all of Europe's populations with the broad brush of 'separation of church and state' being 'set too deeply within the people' was simplistic at best and downright wrong at worst, with Ireland being the example that sprang to mind due to my familiarity with it.
Another example is England: still has an officially establish church, with Lords Spiritual who still sit in the House of Lords albeit without voting rights except in special circumstances. Are the numbers of churchgoers dropping like a rock? Yes indeed. Still doesn't change the fact that at the moment church and state are inextricably linked.
massimilianogoi on 16/4/2010 at 12:26
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
Yes. You curse all the time, you are impolite, obtrusive and fevered while I (above) was just ironic. Oh, and I'm not the first to tell you that, just in case you didn't notice.
Just because I say "hell", or "dammit"? hahah are you so religious? X'D
Queue on 16/4/2010 at 13:02
Quote Posted by Matthew
'Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.' (Leviticus 18:22 KJV)
The whole issues stems from the fact that they just didn't know how to clean their wangs properly back then. The rest of the line, so carefully removed and kept secret by the church reads: '... is abomination the mess thou shalt maketh, unless thine useth a small squirrel for purification in the eyes of the Lord. Amen.'
Beleg Cúthalion on 16/4/2010 at 13:23
Quote Posted by Matthew
However, my point was more that to paint all of Europe's populations with the broad brush of 'separation of church and state' being 'set too deeply within the people' was simplistic at best and downright wrong at worst, with Ireland being the example that sprang to mind due to my familiarity with it.
Well, and I set my example of Germany with almost 20 times as many inhabitants against it. :p If you look at the rest of Europe, France has a strict division, both Italy and Spain had at least their own strong left-wing movements and Poland and Greece don't have too many inhabitants, left aside that the former was subject to decades of anti-religious propaganda.
Yes, it was a bit simplistic to assume that every European inhabitant is "infected" with this idea, but it is in my humble opinion far from downright wrong.
Quote:
Still doesn't change the fact that at the moment church and state are inextricably linked.
I would consider quality next to quantity here as well. You could also blame the political system in the UK then for being old-fashioned just because they have a monarch.
Matthew on 16/4/2010 at 13:49
Does size or freshness of tradition really come into it? Either a state has strong separation or it doesn't. To say that it was 'downright' wrong was, I'll admit, a bit harsh of me, but the fact remains that several states in Europe (Denmark too, by the way, and Italy gives mention to the Catholic Church in its constitution as I understand) have strong ties between a church faction and a state.
Anyway, I am getting majorly off-topic so I'll shut up now.
