Navyhacker006 on 19/11/2003 at 18:14
The whole 1-ammo-type-for-all-guns just reminds me of Battlezone (The cold-war-in-space-one) As I liked Battlezone...I don't see why I wouldn't like this.
You're thinking in terms of clips. Think like a flamethrower (backmounted ones): You don't need to reload the actual gun, just the backpack; and if you refill the backpack as you're playing, there's no reason to include reloading.
==Navyhacker006
Makes sense to me
Morte on 19/11/2003 at 18:39
Yeah, but the difference is a tank has an internal power source to power its weapons, Alex Denton has...what? I certainly haven't seen him carrying any backpacks around in any screenshots.
Don't get me wrong, I quite like the idea in terms of gameplay, but I'm curious about how it will make sense within the context of the game universe.
Freddo on 19/11/2003 at 18:57
From this: http://pcmac.gamehelper.com/articles/463.htm
Quote:
Kids, it's not about the ammo being unified, or the multitool and lockpick being combined into one. It's not about computer hacking being simplified or the inability to manually dial into keypads anymore. It's about being immersed into a beautiful storyline with gameplay that doesn't make you work to carry out the most simple of tasks, and having a variety of characters with their own agendas to interact with. It's about rigging your bet at the Greasel fights by sneaking into an opponent's house and murdering his precious animal to improve your odds. And it's about burying an annoying spider-bot in crates and traffic cones to get it out of your way because your weapons lack enough punch to take it out without blowing through a bunch of ammo. Warren Spector's next baby is coming, and boy is it a doozy.
Sounds good to me :cool:
ZylonBane on 19/11/2003 at 19:05
I fail to see how the energy-bar system would have caused a problem for reloading animations. The interview says that nanite ammo is already represented as clips-- so you fire a weapon until the nanite level in the current clip is too low to supply another round, at which point the weapon automatically kicks into the reload animation. Dead simple.
Having ammo represented as clips, but not having reloading animations, is ridiculous. If they're clips, then they need to be manually loaded. If they don't, then ISA needs to get rid of the clip metaphor.
And the reason the "reload causes ammo remaining in clip to be discarded" system never caught on is simple-- people hate it. Red Faction was originally going to work this way, but so many people complained that they took it out.
As for the whole issue of unified ammo, I initally hated the idea, but came to realize that it's a whole hell of a lot more plausible than having ammo for every weapon in the game liberally scattered around wherever you go. That being said, it's a shame they didn't at least divide the nanite ammo up a bit. Like, normal and "heavy" ammo nanites.
And something else that's going to take major adapting to-- You charge into a situation with your gun blazing, emptying it out into the bad guys. Gun runs out of ammo, so you switch to another weapon and... CRAP! You just emptied your entire ammo supply!
Forsythe on 20/11/2003 at 01:47
Quote:
Originally posted by ZylonBane I fail to see how the energy-bar system would have caused a problem for reloading animations. The interview says that nanite ammo is already represented as clips-- so you fire a weapon until the nanite level in the current clip is too low to supply another round, at which point the weapon automatically kicks into the reload animation. Dead simple.
Well, seeing as they only gave an ultra high-level description of the problem, and as none of us has the source-code to share (thank god... HL2), and lastly, as I've had similarly confusing results when coding on systems one tenth as complex as a game engine, I'd have to say we really can't say it'd be "dead simple". I mean, I find it "dead simple" to catch a baseball; try programming a robot to do so. Besides, that's not the point, it was the flaw and the initial workaround that inspired the decision to keep reloading out; if they wanted to, they could've fixed it, but they apparently liked it as-is.
Quote:
Having ammo represented as clips, but not having reloading animations, is ridiculous. If they're clips, then they need to be manually loaded. If they don't, then ISA needs to get rid of the clip metaphor.
Maybe it refers to how many "Jim-Bob's Standard-Sized Nanobot Refill" packs you have left? It's how I'm choosing to look at it.
Chade on 20/11/2003 at 02:42
I believe, Zylonbane, that your general ammo storage (NOT the amo assigned to a particular gun) is done in terms of a discreet number of clips. You can't have 13.5 clips of ammo available to be fed into a weapon, only 13, or 14.
So when you empty half a clip, and choose to reload, assuming they don't throw out the remaining ammo, and assuming they keep the general ammo storage at such a discreet level, then you do have a problem ...
But if you can't reload with half a clip in you gun, the problem goes away. The next logical step is too remove any incentive for you to want to reload with half a clip gone.
ZylonBane on 20/11/2003 at 03:27
Either way, if ammo is treated as if you have a big nanite tank that's automatically plugged into whatever weapon is equipped, then representing your ammo as clips is an utterly superfluous layer of abstraction.
If this degree of fuzzy thinking is present in something as simple as the ammo management, it doesn't bode well for the rest of the user interface.
And part of me is still saying, "They just took a cheap excuse not to do any reload animations".
GayleSaver on 20/11/2003 at 03:48
But over the past two YEARS?! It's not a minor decision.
fatso the wombat on 20/11/2003 at 06:06
Quote:
Originally posted by ZylonBane Either way, if ammo is treated as if you have a big nanite tank that's automatically plugged into whatever weapon is equipped, then representing your ammo as clips is an utterly superfluous layer of abstraction.
Here is a quote from Krypt a DX2 dev about why they used clips
Quote:
The reason the interface divides your ammo pool up into clips is because of the lack of granularity of the bar on the HUD. If the ammo bar represented your entire pool of ammo, you would have to fire at least 50 pistol shots, or 5 rockets or so to see it move even one pixel. There just wasn't enough resolution for it to work that way, and it would have just been bad interface design anyway. Having the bar represent 1/10th of your total ammo pool was a much better way to display it, and calling each of these parts a clip was the most intuitive way to get that across. Makes sense to me!
ZylonBane on 20/11/2003 at 06:31
Quote:
The reason the interface divides your ammo pool up into clips is because of the lack of granularity of the bar on the HUD. If the ammo bar represented your entire pool of ammo, you would have to fire at least 50 pistol shots, or 5 rockets or so to see it move even one pixel.
Okay, this makes sense.
Quote:
Having the bar represent 1/10th of your total ammo pool was a much better way to display it, and calling each of these parts a clip was the most intuitive way to get that across.
This, however, does NOT make sense. These units don't function as clips, so don't confuse the issue by calling them clips.
And you know what? It's irrelevant whether or not the ammo bar moves after firing a weapon. The purpose of the bar isn't to tell how much ammo a weapon uses, it's to tell how much ammo is left.
