Chade on 11/3/2015 at 03:34
Ah, so there is a small chance that the estimates are slightly less optimistic than normal. Well, that's good. :p
Vae on 12/3/2015 at 02:51
For perspective...
1) The UA team already has an early prototype with Unity 4, so the likely Unity 5 prototype will be time-accelerated by this circumstance.
2) They are using Agile Principals to manage this project...That means increased efficiency, utilizing time-boxed scheduled iterations with interactive feedback from the fanbase during this process.
Knowing that they are using a time-boxed iteration process, with experienced veterans at the helm, one can extrapolate the full production schedule utilizing the quarterly time-boxes that have already been provided:
- Prototype build sometime during Q4 2015.
- Pre-Alpha build sometime during Q1 2016.
- Alpha build sometime during Q2 2016.
- Beta build sometime during Q3 2016.
- Final build sometime during Q4 2016.
Starker on 12/3/2015 at 07:24
They don't have an "early prototype build", they have a prototype cobbled together with Unity assets. This is not the game they are making, it's more like a proof of concept than anything else.
And agile methods are not a magic wand that makes all development troubles melt away -- with such a small team and no corporate oversight, the problems that come from having a more rigid top-down management system would be practically non-existent anyway. There will be no time won, because none was wasted in the first place.
Vae on 12/3/2015 at 09:29
Quote Posted by Starker
They don't have an "early prototype build", they have a prototype cobbled together with Unity assets. This is not the game they are making, it's more like a proof of concept than anything else.
Thank you for catching my unintentional use of the word "build" in that particular context...I will edit the oversight, so as not to confuse others.
Although it is true the early prototype serves as a "proof of concept", and does have the obvious Unity placeholder assets, it also contains some time-saving transferable development within it...so the salient point of (1), still stands.
Quote:
And agile methods are not a magic wand that makes all development troubles melt away
Of course not, and I never said otherwise...so your explanation of the obvious has no impact against the premise stated in (2).
Quote:
with such a small team and no corporate oversight, the problems that come from having a more rigid top-down management system would be practically non-existent anyway. There will be no time won, because none was wasted in the first place.
You are erroneously concluding that all small teams working without a top-down corporate management system, are equally productive and efficient regardless of methodology...
That is clearly false.
Chade on 12/3/2015 at 10:32
That's not what Starker said at all. :erg:
Personally I see no reason to doubt that a team with their experience and small size would have good feedback loops in place, regardless of whether they happen to call that agile or not. I agree the team looks promising, but most projects blow their deadlines, no matter how conservative such deadlines may be. We'll see. I don't see much point in guessing at this early stage.
Starker on 12/3/2015 at 10:54
Vae, you are overselling the time-saving transferable development part quite a bit. Let me just quote Tim Stellmach (emphasis mine):
Quote:
There are definitely
bits and pieces of logic we can salvage, such as the system for converting the bridge from a solid object to an exploding one and making that explosion look sensible and cinematic. The spiders contain some
experimental steering behavior code that is actually capable of a good deal more then you see in the video snippets.
This is stuff that we will definitely build on, but
I don't want to oversell it either. Its bits and pieces that still need to be fitted to a larger over-all game architecture. There is a reason why we have a delivery date almost 2 years out. We still have a lot of work to do.
As for the rest...
All the benefits of a "time-boxed iteration process" mean nothing if you fail a sprint or two. Any team that is flexible enough to avoid the problems that agile development is supposed to solve will not significantly benefit from an agile method, assuming equally competent teams. And if a team is used to a certain workflow, imposing a specific agile method might work against it, even. The best producers are those who know not to meddle with a working solution.
Besides, the bottlenecks of development are not usually the development methods used -- it's stuff like pipelines working slower than expected, not having enough people to do [insert an important aspect of development here, like animations], office politics getting in the way, etc.
Vae on 12/3/2015 at 20:48
Quote Posted by Starker
Vae, you are overselling the time-saving transferable development part quite a bit.
I cannot possibly be overselling something which has never been defined...Up until now, you've been arguing with an imagined idea of a specific amount of time, which I never presented.
In fact, that statement from Tim only proves my point...Any time saved by having an early prototype, rather than starting from scratch, will help them meet their scheduled deadlines.
Quote:
All the benefits of a "time-boxed iteration process" mean nothing if you fail a sprint or two.
That's an "if" statement...Meaning that if not failed, there are gained benefits...Therefore, you now admit that a development method can and will produce varying results, regardless of the presence of a top-down management system.
Quote:
And if a team is used to a certain workflow, imposing a specific agile method might work against it, even. The best producers are those who know not to meddle with a working solution.
Yes...and that's why the Underworld Ascendant team chose to go with Agile.
Quote:
Besides, the bottlenecks of development are not usually the development methods used -- it's stuff like pipelines working slower than expected, not having enough people to do [insert an important aspect of development here, like animations], office politics getting in the way, etc.
Yes...bottlenecks can and do occur on various levels...I'm glad that you now agree with me, that development methods do in fact have an impact on meeting deadlines...:)
Starker on 13/3/2015 at 03:20
Quote Posted by Vae
I cannot possibly be overselling something which has never been defined...Up until now, you've been arguing with an imagined idea of a specific amount of time, which I never presented.
In fact, that statement from Tim only proves my point...Any time saved by having an early prototype, rather than starting from scratch, will help them meet their scheduled deadlines.
I have not been arguing with an imagined idea of a specific amount of time. I'm saying that the effect is not as big as you imagine it to be. Not on the scale where you can claim that they will meet deadlines because of it. It's peanuts, really, compared to all the work that lies ahead.
It's like saying that a mountaineer will make it to Mount Everest on schedule, because they left 6 hours early when you don't know whether they will have to stay put for three weeks because there's an unexpected storm or a blocked path. And there are always unexpected snowstorms and blocked paths in software development.
Quote Posted by Vae
That's an "if" statement...Meaning that if not failed, there are gained benefits...Therefore, you now admit that a development method can and will produce varying results, regardless of the presence of a top-down management system.
Yes, if they stay on schedule, they will meet deadlines, if you want to get tautological. But failed sprints happen all the time and they are more likely to happen in this case because of higher standards and because they are wading in new experimental territory. They are not making a sequel to Call of Duty here, it's a new immersive sim of an unprecedented complexity.
Quote Posted by Vae
Yes...and that's why the Underworld Ascendant team chose to go with Agile.
And I'm telling you it's not such a big deal as you imagine it to be. It's not like they would've chosen Waterfall otherwise.
Quote Posted by Vae
Yes...bottlenecks can and do occur on various levels...I'm glad that you now agree with me, that development methods do in fact have an impact on meeting deadlines...:)
No, I'm telling you that the particular development method does not have a significant impact in this case. Not to the degree that you can with any confidence claim that they will meet deadlines because of it. When push comes to shove, it all boils down to the skill of the team and how good they are at communication, not to following some development method.
Pyrian on 13/3/2015 at 04:25
One might, however, say that they didn't make enough kickstarter money to blow off the deadline. :cheeky: Running out of cash can be highly motivating. Not necessarily in a good way, but hey.