Scots Taffer on 10/5/2007 at 03:21

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(Aimed at GBM's response)

And this what makes it doubly difficult, what defined TTLG in the past was the games and that was undoubtedly the primary pulling factor, whereas if we are contending now that the community is the core of TTLG of the present, some people were drawn here for Deus Ex discussion, others for Elder Scrolls discussion, some through association with known members, and that's what makes it a real melting pot of interests and diverse tastes. Some people who may consider themselves long-time members of the forums may not own or even have played a single LGS game, but this is defining the readership as opposed to the niche we're supposed to inhabit that draws the readership. Still, history and demographics are important.

I've moved away from gaming somewhat, I struggle to get through games that I'm enjoying and that I intend to set time aside for - part of that is being a busy working parent, part of that is new interests and hobbies, and part of that is ennui with certain aspects of gaming - and so I can't really speak that fully about what I'd like to see gaming-wise from TTLG.

However, if I were to try to put into words what I think the LGS games (that I played, anyway) captured and what games we try to classify as such today, emphasise the following factors:
- atmospheric immersion through sound, setting and game engine technology
- uniqueness of environs and period-styling
- high quality storytelling through a traditional and modern styles

When you put all those together, not a lot of games fall under that category, which is why we don't have a Half-Life subforum, or Military games or Final Fantasy subforums. It seems wise to retain gaming as the focus for TTLG given the history and it's discussion areas devoted to them, therefore maybe all we need is community effort in identifying those games which capture those factors listed above (or develop those factors). This also offers editorialising opportunities for people who want to expand and explore the themes and ideas that drive the factors above, such as a piece GBM once wrote about the creation of fear in video gaming.

(Aimed at Stitch)

I agree somewhat, however there are sites that already explore a lot of this stuff in a similar way - despite whether you like their particular brand of humour of not, is another question - such as Penny Arcade, but I suppose one could argue their slant is very generalist.

Phatose on 10/5/2007 at 04:34

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It would seem to me the obvious way to go would be to make it into a 'smart' First Person games site. Really, if you look over the games that get major attention around here, you've got the Elder Scrolls - first person RPGs. The -Shocks, Stalker, Dark Messiah, Deus Ex, and Arx - all points on a spectrum between RPG and FPS.

Thief is the odd man out, but again it's an FPS game where you're not twitch gaming, and you're much more dependent on your brain to succeed then your reflexes.

In essence, the site pretty much already is focused heavily on RPG/FPS hybrids, and you could probably cover thief and a bunch of other games by making it a hub for news related to non-twitch FPS games, or FPSneakers and FPRPGs.

Phatose on 10/5/2007 at 05:02

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Do we really need to? I'd expect any genre based site is going to have some disagreements over whether or not game X qualifies for their genre, no matter how apparently stringent the definitions they apply. I'd probably use a guideline along the lines of "If you can't describe the way the game plays without involving considerable discussion of non-combat portions, it qualifies." then play it by ear along the edges, based on the apparent community demand.

NOLF, at least to me felt like it had lots of interesting plot and plenty of humor, but in the pure gameplay department it was pretty much a standard shooter. I can think of other borderline cases - TRON 2.0 pops to mind - but I'd doubt you'd be able to get a set of rules put together that cover everything already covered here without becoming an abritrary line of best fit.

Couldn't you just go with your gut on whether or not to cover something, and if you leave something out trust the community would bring it up - probably, over and over again in all caps and profanity?

PigLick on 10/5/2007 at 06:51

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If you ever need an editorial about how greasy cocks relate to the modern gamer, then I am your man!

I think a heavy bent toward the legacy gaming side of things is a good idea, I mean the reason I wandered into this place at all is because I was looking for ways to get Ultima Underworld to work in Windows XP. I mean we now have that legacy forum, and I would hazard a guess that gets plenty of attention.
There are plenty of good, humurous writers on these forums, it shouldnt be too hard to get good quality, entertaining and informative material together. (one would think)
On reflection, I also believe that "Thief" type games attract a possibly more artistic, creative minded type of person? I am not sure how you would incorporate this into a website, but there it is.


oh yeh, also photoshopping competitions

Digital Nightfall on 10/5/2007 at 07:09

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It really is a problem we grappled with since we opened. During the first month, TTLG.com was more or less used for news <i>about the websites</i> rather than news about the games.

Let's talk about the status quo.

Today, is news <i>about the network</i> something that The Hub should be used for? No, but it would have a place there. Of course, it comes down to tedium. If someone on the staff gets home from work/school, and decides to do such and such somewhere on the network, it's another leap of effort to then go ahead and do a news post about it, when no-one will probably care. So it doesn't get done. Besides, cobwebs are sticky and gross, and no-one really feels like posting some trivial website development news to the main site when currently a 9 month old post about an interview holds the seat of glory... cobwebs and all. So what the heck is going on here?

Some news about the network is trivial and not really relevant to anyone but those who run the place. But sometimes it is noteworthy, even if small. For example, there's a difference between the SS2 soundtrack being released on the forums and it being added to the sshock2.com music page (on my to-do list). Both are news - one is big, the other is significantly less big, but still important. Not every news post can be BREAKING NEWS!

So maybe the first step is to actually report the news.

<li>News about the website network is still news. Maybe it's not heartstopping or earthshaking, but it's a post. Make a judgement call over if it's worth posting or not.

Sometimes we have forum announcements. Sometimes they're about spammers, sometimes it's about forum downtime, sometimes it's about getting everyone's attention about important threads that we want feedback on. I think this falls into the same category as the first point: people on the staff need to judge if the announcement should be posted to the front page or not. They could be boring, clerical, or even irritating, but if it's worth making an announcement about, maybe it's worth being on the front page.

<li>An Announcement could be news too. They happen all the time, and sometimes having them on the front page would be very appropriate.

And finally to complete the triad of "status quo" is maybe the most obvious: There's usually some news floating around month to month about Warren Spector, Harvey Smith, and maybe even a peep out of Doug Church once every blue moon. Posting about this to the front page - and this doesn't have to be a NEWS post, but some type of "here is our reaction to this" type situation, that goes on the front page. There isn't anywhere else on the network where this is really appropriate; it's very appropriate there.

<li>The goings-on of ex-LGS celebrity developers are current and constant. TTLG should react somehow whenever one of them are in the media, and this is not a rare event.

As I said, all of the above are the status-quo "no brainer" issues that I don't think should be forgotten. It's where TTLG <b>should</b> be right now according to how things should be run, but inevitably <b>are not</b>. Why are they not? Because the people on the staff are usually working their asses off about something, web/gaming related or otherwise, and TTLG.com is so overwhelmingly disinteresting that noone on the staff seems to care anymore what happens there day to day.

<li>What's happening at TTLG.com needs to first excite and interest the staff before it can excite anyone else. The status quo is boring as hell. Blah blah, report the news. Blah blah, today we fixed some broken links. Blah blah, we added a new forum feature. It's necessary and important, but boring, and ends up never being done.

That's the springboard from which we much launch. But what direction? Here's some more facts about TTLG, many of which have been touched on already by this thread.

<li>It has a remarkably mature user-base. Most of the users are in their 20s and 30s, and users over 30 are just as common as those under 20. <i>We're a gaming community of grown-ups.</o>
<li>It can never pick which games will be popular with its users. I could never have guessed that STALKER would be popular here, and Dark Messiah didn't come close to being as popular as I thought it would be. <i>Deciding the future of the network based on what games we think will be popular is the wrong idea.</i>
<li>Thief FMs and FM design is, I believe, the greatest success story of both LGS and TTLG. <i>The people at TTLG are a creative, ambitious bunch, who want to take ownership of this phenomenon, to make it not just a game, but a hobby as well - and for some even a career.</i>

Maturity, Unpredictability, and Creativity. We're adults. We can't tie our future down to a question of which games we cover. We're bursting at the seams with creative talent.

commchat.ttlg.com will not work. That much I think everyone can agree on. Many of the fun/awesome ideas that one could dream up would be perfectly content/at home nestled snug within the depths of comm-chat where it (thank God) can't do any real damage.
graveyard.ttlg.com could probably plug on for some time as it has, but I don't think anyone wants that. The danger is that many good, ambitious, well crafted plans at this point will still lead to graveyard.ttlg.com.

Some outside examples:

theonering.net became very popular when the movies were being made and shortly after the release, and now all they seem to post about is what the actors and other makers of the movies are doing - things that have nothing to do with the point of the site. I don't want to see something like this happen here.

wcnews.com reports every single little inane, insignificant bit of news that they can possibly convolutedly connect to wing commander, and manage to get news posts up just about every day. Their coverage of Wing Commander: ARCADE is similar to what would happen if TTLG decided to cover the latest Thief cell-phone game. I get the idea that they also "save news for a rainy day" so that if they ever hit a dry spell, they have a backlog of news posts to throw at the main site to keep things rolling. I don't want to see this happen either.

I remember, years ago, some confusion and criticism over the way I made a teacup the icon that footnoted the news post on TTLG.com rather than some relevant logo. The reason was because I saw the place as being less about gaming and more about the people. I wasn't thinking about "internet cafe", I was thinking about the den, or the pub - a place to gather with others who understand you and share things everyone can be passionate about. But then TTLG.com failed to actually live up to that ideal. TTLG will be 9 years old in a few months - 10 years old isn't that far away. I see no reason why it can't still be around then. The only thing that I am afraid of is that it will still be only trying to live up to that status quo - and failing - just like it is today. The teacup is still waiting for that warm den of community to take hold of it.

Reviews, fine. Editorials, columns, blogs, good. Interviews, nice. Reports on the goings-on about the network - yes. Comedy posts, webcomics, wonderful. Where's the key that ties it all together? Where's the teacup? I don't think we can just throw ideas out and see which sticks. It has to start from the simplest seed and grow out from there. Maturity, Unpredictability, Creativity. Crazy combination.