Schattentänzer on 4/11/2006 at 23:46
I agree with Morte, and will not offer my own ramblings about this book, except that it was not a good choice for the club. Even if you think the book is entertaining, there isn't really much worth discussing. At least not about the content.
Paz on 5/11/2006 at 01:27
I don't know about that. After all, we've just had this:
Which is a thoroughly good read, as well as being fairly huge (and convinced me that the "hero" in the book is actually Peter - however nasty, he brought about world peace instead of EXTERMINATING A RACE; for me that puts him one-up).
Maybe some of the people who voted for this can try to justify the moral philosophy of the novel (or at least parts of it), or something? Assuming they go along with it to some extent.
Stitch on 5/11/2006 at 03:25
Quote Posted by tungsten
Shut up, Stitch. If you'd make a thread for each topic (voting, suggestions, discussion) people would find the thread they want to reply to.
Well such rampant spamming ain't going to happen so there's no point in you bringing it up a third time. Also, I kind of figured a subject line of "Ender's Game (discuss!)" wasn't particularly cryptic.
But welcome to the thread! I'm glad to see you're throwing your opinion in the ring, let's get some more!
Scots Taffer on 5/11/2006 at 07:19
My opinion is that this will all end in tears, and blood - an orgy, NO, A FOUNTAIN OF BLOOD!
Marecki on 5/11/2006 at 08:48
Quote Posted by Paz
From Poland ... "John Paul" ... special powers.
HMMM.
Hah! The joke is on you, if you're thinking what I think you were thinking the kid's name would have been Charles :ebil: Seriously on the other hand, it is in fact told in that story that John Paul Wiggin, or Jan Paweł Wieczorek as he was originally named by his immigrant parents, was named after the Polish pope.
As for the book itself, one thing that particularly struck me was a certain property of adults appearing in it - namely, they are always right! They play a dangerous game of basically giving the children free rein in their naive brutality, sometimes leading them even to lethal violence (it's like "Lord of the Flies" all over again upon some points!), they play with Ender's and Bean's (and others' as well, but particularly these two's) feelings and nerves, but they always get it right in the end - even if the outcome could just as well be a total disaster, with the hope of humankind dead or a mental wreck even before entering real combat (and of course of all the "final kids" only Bean is aware of the fact they fight real battles, the other think it's still a game). Hell, someone has even had enough brains to send Mazer Rackham (sp? It's been a while...) into a relativistic loop so that he could teach the future commander. "Always listen to your parents, kids"? At least it gets better (i.e. somewhat more realistic) in later parts of the cycle.
Matthew on 5/11/2006 at 16:37
I took that aspect as being more the fact that the adults had planned things so carefully and could gauge Ender so well that nothing he did was ever truly of his own volition. It was an anticipated reaction to the circumstances that they had meticulously set up.
tungsten on 5/11/2006 at 22:23
Quote Posted by Stitch
Well such rampant spamming ain't going to happen so there's no point in you bringing it up a third time. Also, I kind of figured a subject line of "Ender's Game (discuss!)" wasn't particularly cryptic.
I brought it up a third time because I haven't read any response from you on the subject. While I agree that it is kind of OK with this title, I still think there would be better titles than "[TTLG Book Club] Candidates now being accepted for January's book" for a thread that tells you which book you want to read in December...
Suggestion threads contain (hopefully) spoilerfree recommendations, while discussion threads are spoiler-heavy about one book. Don't you ever dig out old threads to find something again? That too gets more difficult with changing titles. Don't worry about spamming. You're in commchat and your threads are "hot topics" with lots of serious anwers.
Schattentänzer: there are no "good choices" in democracy. There are votes and you'll have to live with the outcome. No points to discuss? - Tell me, would you use kids to save our race if you see that it might work?
Navyhacker006 on 9/11/2006 at 15:51
Where has Navyhacker006 been
A) Busy with school. Whenever I check, this thread's never up, so I've actually been wondering if anyone was bothering after the DUNK post.
B) In hiding, because I seem to have made a mistake in voting for it. It's become quite clear that I do not think about books on the same level as most of you. Hadn't even heard the term 'genre fiction' before the DUNK post.
C) All of the above.
So. Ender's Game. A book I avoided for years because, based on the cover/name, I assumed it to a be a crappy ripoff of Star Wars (Ender, Endor...). Was slightly mistaken, and I have enjoyed reading it many times.
Justify the moral philosophy?
I just thought it was a good book. Never again am I voting in these things.
Never been very good at justifying things.
Not sure I agree with Kessel; I've never felt sympathyfor Ender. Empathy, maybe: I identifed with his torment.
He's brutal when he's alone, more brutal than his brother, because his brother is only brutal to a point - calculated brutality. Sees patterns, understands how far to push to get what he wants. Ender, being younger and brighter, falls into all the traps he knows to avoid. He only sees Peter's rage, not the reasons, because he's still dealing with the reasons.
He gets jumped outside of school and 'wants to end all the fights' - his worldview is reduced to two outcomes: beat his opponent so badly that he'll think twice next time, or endure the fight. When a worldview is reduced to black and white, really poor decisions are made.
Training. The computer games are interestingly described, especially considering what little Card had to work with in his own time.
The Game has always appealed to me. CTF and Laser Tag rolled into one, with zero-g, forcing the players to think about up and down as well as the usual; preparing them covertly for scenarios where they aren't physically present, but are only directing others.
Meanwhile, Peter is taking advantage of the political situation to get people to listen. Lines of communication open, preparing for when the Space War is over.
Ender is the child that never grew up, but had to make an adult decision - and instead, had a typical teenage reaction. Gets fed up, does something out of spite and stalks off. The right decision, maybe, but done for the wrong reasons.
No, I'm not sure if any of that made the least amount of sense.
I'm sorry for starting the vote 'lawl, 'cause I know it!!!!111'. I'll not post in the big kid's discussions anymore. K?
Schattentänzer on 9/11/2006 at 21:44
Quote Posted by tungsten
Schattentänzer: there are no "good choices" in democracy. There are votes and you'll have to live with the outcome. No points to discuss? - Tell me, would you use kids to save our race if you see that it might work?
Oh please. Bring a soda pop to a wine tasting and expect the audience to give a deeper comment than "It's sweet". The question you asked is more a plot hole than a discussion topic - give me something better, and I'm happy to discuss it, but I'm still holding on to my opinion that the book offers little beyond 8th grade philosophy club questions of morality and ethics.
Paz on 9/11/2006 at 23:18
Quote Posted by Navyhacker006
Justify the moral philosophy?
I just thought it was a good book. Never again am I voting in these things.
Woah, there's no need for all the putting yourself down. When I put that question out there it was just fishing for some extra discussion, not some kind of "YOU THERE! JUSTIFY THIS TO ME!"
Your thoughts seem perfectly fine - mine weren't exactly fantastically developed, you'll have noticed - and I don't think there's any reason for you (or anyone) to feel excluded from these book club shenanigans.
We may have just had a practical demonstration that "genre" stuff doesn't generate massive amounts of debate (although
The Big Sleep managed ok, despite doubts). That's all. It's not an indication that people can only nominate/vote for books which are DEAD CLEVER FOR SMARTY FOLKS in future. Nor, indeed, should anyone really feel that this is a special "intelligentsia only" club.
I hope not anyway.
