Kangra on 18/11/2022 at 22:46
A good while back I went through Thief Gold using a playstyle I refer to as 'Total Knockout' (or sometimes, TKO). It involves knocking out every enemy, with no bodies moved and no bodies discovered, and as little change to the environment as possible. My more detailed rules will be posted below.
You can read through (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151699) that thread if you want to see how it went. I note which
Although I started with this style on The Thieves' Guild, I've actually gone all the way through Thief 2 before using it. I'm going to go through it again, making notes of how I did and seeing if I can improve on my earlier run-through. This is also using TFix, which I have not used for all levels of T2 before. Of course there are two missions that do not allow knockouts at all, so I'll be playing them only to get loot for the mission that follows. I'm also fairly sure Sabotage at Soulforge will only be a minimal update, as it's barely a challenge for this style, and also a guaranteed bust due to the high number of metal beasts.
The next post will detail my rules, and then I'll start in with the missions.
Kangra on 18/11/2022 at 22:50
General Rules for Total Knock-out
* Every creature that could reliably report the presence of a thief is incapacitated ("knocked out") at the time the mission is done, and any discovery of this happening occurs well after the thief is gone.
* Aside from missing loot, there should be no clear evidence of the thief's presence, or anyone recalling actually seeing a thief. Preferably nobody recalls anything unusual occurring at all prior to becoming unconscious.
* No deaths or serious injuries have been caused directly or indirectly by the thief's presence.
The desired effect is that it is as if a wave of sleeping gas (or a spell) came over the whole area, allowing someone to swoop in and pick the place clean, with no one the wiser until the next morning.
More specifically:
1) All entities that could reliably report the incident, even if they would not travel in the area where the theft occurred, must be incapacitated at the time the mission ends.
i. Reliable reporters include human guards and civilians, mechanical creatures, as well as animal creatures that appear to have some level of language skill.
ii. Undead enemies (including those capable of speech, such as haunts) are not considered reliable reporters and do not need to be knocked out, but also should not be disturbed or clearly alerted to the thief's presence. In particular, they must not alert anyone else to the thief's presence.
iii. Any inert/inactive creature that is not a reliable reporter (such as a sleeping zombie) must not become active due to the thief's actions.
iv. Any entity that disappears after an event, or is not accessible within the level (prisoners, for example) can be ignored for these purposes.
v. Entities that are 'allied/friendly' to the thief do not need to be knocked out. In general, this is meant to apply to anyone who is either expecting to encounter the thief or would not report an encounter.
2) No bodies can be discovered by enemies. Bodies are not allowed to be moved.
i. Bodies may be dragged or moved to complete an objective.
ii. Bodies may be 'repositioned' to obtain loot on their person or in the event that the body blocks access to necessary loot/passages.
iii. In the event that a knockout inadvertently causes a body to fall into water, fire, or a similar immediately life-threatening environment, the body may be removed from danger. The location where the body is left must match the place as close as possible to where the knockout occurred, or where the target normally patrols or is positioned.
3) No top-level alerts of sentient entities caused by the thief may occur (Level 3 or initiation of direct action towards the thief).
i. If an enemy becomes alerted just as it is knocked out, this is acceptable. It's preferable if the awareness is not deemed a necessary part of the knock-out (i.e. running up quickly to someone and smacking them without trying to be stealthy is discouraged).
ii. Level 2 alerts (active searching without a definite target) are discouraged, and should only be used to obtain a knock-out as a last resort. Targets may not be blackjacked while actively engaged in searching (gas is okay). Knocking out a target when it is returning to its normal position/patrol is acceptable but discouraged as much as the alert itself.
iii. Non-sentient creatures (e.g. spiders, burricks) are allowed to detect the thief as long as they do not alert other enemies, and do not cause harm to themselves or others as a result of the detection. ('Harm to others' includes the thief, so no damage may be taken after a detection). These enemies may be knocked out even while alerted.
iv. Alarms not related to a specific entity (e.g. triggered by Watchers) are to be avoided. They are acceptable only if nobody could possibly be aware of them going off, and must not be active when the mission ends.
4) At the end of the mission, minimal evidence remains of the thief's presence. Doors should remain in their original state, items that can be returned to their original location must be returned, etc.
i. A lock should not be picked if there exists a feasible way to access the locked area without picking the lock. It may be picked freely if it can be locked later. Picking locks to obtain loot or necessary equipment is okay.
ii. Use of moss arrows is disallowed (leaves evidence). Other arrows (e.g. noisemaker) can be used only if they are recovered before any enemy discovers them, and they should not be used in a situation where their firing could be considered obviously observed. Fire arrows may be used as a distraction as a last resort, although their path to the target must not be 'observable' since the flame crystal itself is highly visible.
iii. Rope (or equivalent) arrows are allowed as long as they are retrieved, and used in locations that are not noticeable.
iv. Using water arrows to douse lights is allowed but discouraged; if any burning fire is doused (outside of disabling mechanical enemies), it should be re-lit. The acceptable number of fires left out varies by level size but must be reasonable (1-3 normally, if well spread out).
v. Use of flash bombs is at the player's discretion. As a fairly likely indication of some presence human or otherwise, they should at minimum be discouraged. Use on non-sentient creatures is allowed.
vi. Potions do not leave evidence; usage of them is discouraged but allowed.
5) No entity may be killed or seriously injured by direct or indirect action of the thief.
i. 'Indirect action' includes, but is not limited to: explosive mines, allowing an incapacitated enemy to fall into danger of death, leading enemies to fight each other, or causing an enemy to self-destruct.
ii. Deaths or injury that occur as a result of events triggered by the player are acceptable, but should be avoided if possible.
iii. Damage incurred during knockouts (as long as it is non-lethal) does not count against this rule.
6) All objectives must be accomplished to finish the mission. If one of the objectives prohibits knockouts generally, the run is voided. Outside of this one case, completion of an objective does not violate any of the rules.
i. The thief should obtain all loot that it is possible to get in the level.
ii. No restrictions are made on equipment obtained prior to or during the mission.
Kangra on 18/11/2022 at 22:52
1.Running Interference
TKO:- Difficulty: *
KO: 15 (includes Jenivere)
Loot: 1285
Secrets: 3/3
Pickpockets: 4/9
Time taken: 41:00
Well, it was not difficult to meet at least one of the mission's objectives here. Despite that, this one was not a clean mission -- it has some unavoidable alerts. It's short and the enemies are spread out enough to be kind of boring for knockout situations, so the one mission where you are supposed to knock people out ends up being one of the least rewarding for a TKO thief.
The first part of the mission was just clearing out guards more or less as I encountered them. I headed up to the ground level after getting inside. There I did make sure to KO the two patrolling guards well away from the main hallway that leads to the large central chamber, as I wanted that empty for later. Next I worked my to the other side of the house and down to the lower level, and back into the kitchen. Again for later reasons, I ensured that I got the kitchen servant in the storeroom inside of the kitchen itself. Finally I went up the dumbwaiter and nabbed the yellow key off the guard. It's this guard that presents the most trouble, as you can't knock him out from inside the dumbwaiter, and the room is far too well-lit to enter safely. I had to come back for him to get the KO.
With the yellow key, I went back around to the basement guard station (after clearing out the front wing that's only accessible with that key). The two guards inside go down easily as long as you're fast enough, which I was. Then I took out the lone guard watching the kitchen.
That left the last three troublesome spots of the level. There's one guard stationed in an alcove outside the kitchen, that guard still in the upstairs 'dining room', and the guards outside the front door. I dealt with the one in the alcove first. He needs to be drawn out with an alert; there's not really any other way* to do it. I was able to knock him out just as he went back into the alcove, so he was roughly in the correct spot.
The dining room guard also needs to be lured out. About the only way I could find for that one was to make noise in the dumbwaiter; it's hard to tell what triggers him to run, but eventually he will come out and into the central chamber and maybe downstairs to the kitchen. That's a L3 alert and a clear bust, though it's also why I made sure that no other bodies would be visible to him on this route. I trailed him back to the room when he gave up and made sure to drop the key back on his body later.
As for the outside guards: The two nearest the door can be taken out with swift action. Using one door as cover, I hit one guard, then ran over and hit the other. Of course, this needs to be done just as the patrolling guard passes, and now I had to take care of him before he comes around again. The stone in the courtyard is quite noisy, so you can't quite sneak up on him directly. As he nears the front gate, though, it's a bit darker, and he only alerted to L1 as I approached and then jumped behind him. I hit him fast enough to not register a higher alert.
My last knockout was kind of a joke. As I ran out with Basso and Jenivere, the last objective ticked off. I was standing just behind them and wondered what would happen if I hit them at that point. I bonked Jenivere, she cried out, and the skull screen flashed up just for an instant, and then I won the mission. I didn't bother trying to hit them both on a second attempt, but it might well be possible (again, allies are not considered necessary knockouts for my runs).
*Conceivably, stacking crates to block him in and then nudging or crawling around to somehow get a knockout may work, but that's getting kind of silly, since it might not technically violate rules if you put the crates back, but it seems like a spiritual break.
Galaer on 20/11/2022 at 21:50
I decided to try to do this challenge for Running Interference too. I ghosted this mission without KOs and ghosted missions based on it, so I was confident that successful TKO is possible. For me courtyard wasn't any problem. Just enter via outside gate, hide in shadow on the left, KO archer from the front (he only 1st alerted), go along wall, mantle on white stairs and KO both front entrance guards.
Dining room was a bit harder. I waited in doorway and then I needed to blindly enter when patroller was turning. You have barely enough time to run to him and dodge him from left when he's turning. Then just blackjack him and it's done.
Guard in alcove is also not that hard. I decided to do quick frontal attack. There are 3 ways guard will react to that: immediate attack, surprise or he will not react. So I blackjacked him and he didn't react. He probably was busy daydreaming about some cute maid at the moment. No idea what you tried to do with crates. Enemies can easily see through them.
Lastly I needed to find loot, which took me couple minutes as I never made notes what is where. No luring was needed, no bodies has been moved. Every key was returned and I just needed to lock basement door behind Basso who unlocked it and forgot to lock it. I didn't KO Basso and Jeneviere, because they are Garrett's allies.
STATS:
Time: 0:26:33; Loot: 1015/1285
Pockets Picked: 7/9
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 14
Damage Dealt: 14; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
Secrets: 3/3 + bonus objective
TKO: SUCCESS
Kangra on 21/11/2022 at 18:24
That's an excellent run! I'm always forgetting that swift action can often work better than trying to creep slowly.
As for the crates, the idea is to hold the guard in position so if they hunt they won't find you. Also for hopping onto to get over or around. Sometimes they can be used to push without getting too close if they're the sort of guard that can be shifted. I have walled that guard in before just to see what can be done (not when trying to do a TKO), and I did get around him. However, I realize that I did it without TFix, and the way hunting/L2 alerts work in TFix, it might not be successful to get behind the guard without just rushing him regardless of crates.
Kangra on 24/11/2022 at 13:10
2. Shipping... and Receiving
TKO:+ Difficulty: *
KO: 34
Loot: 1665
Secrets: 14/14
Pickpockets: 18/18
Locks Picked: 3
Time taken: 1:49:14
A nice, long, mission, but there's very little that's tough about it for TKO. Some guards have long patrol routes that can intersect others, so I had to choose when and where to do the knock outs wisely. Most will also not start patrolling until you trigger them, so you have to know if you're in a spot that can start one moving. My prior experience with this level helped here. I more or less went from north to south and outside-in to do all the knockouts first, and then looted the place afterward.
The initial crates are on the northwest edge of the dockyard; I started by taking out the exterior patrols along the north side, as they pass by each other. Also present are Uriel & Kilgor (the two making a weapons deal for the Hammerites), and if you don't knock them out they will disappear about ten seconds after they enter Kilgor's unit. I had to wait nearby while they talked. Once Kilgor turned to open the door, I had to rush up to bonk Uriel and then get Kilgor inside. It was hard to predict if Kilgor would keep going or stop and turn around. Since these knockouts are technically not required by my rules since they disappear, I allowed myself to use an invisibility potion to ensure that there'd be no trouble getting them both.
I proceeded to clear out all of Building A (up to Area 131). I tried to get as many of the guards inside the building as possible, for the sake of 'visibility' of my actions (even if the guards below will never actually spot the bodies in-game). There are some 'narrow' hallways near the Main Office in which the guards do spot you 100% of the time if they pass you, so I had to be a little cautious around there. I also made sure to trigger the conversation with the guard from Dayport and the civilian about Mechanist pollution, and got both of them shortly after doing so, before they could head into other parts of the map.
Area 131 has the most overlapping routes, and I handled it next. I started out near Brambich's office and moved from west to east, going only so far as the corner of Gilver's unit, as I did not want to trigger the conversation between the two civilians about spice imports.
With those guards down, I hopped over the crates and went around to the backside of Building B. Once again there are overlapping routes with the patrols on the outside and the pirate 'thieves' (Davidson and his crew). Two thieves head in and out of Building B, and I knocked them out in dark areas inside. The rest of the guards were easily isolated and knocked out. The last pirate, the one standing on the deck, had to be approached from the gangplank, as getting on the boat in other ways risked setting off the spiders, and that might have led to a fight between the enemies.
Indeed, spiders (here and elsewhere) gave almost the only difficulty in the level. Even though I don't care if they are alerted, I can't take damage or risk that they get out and attack any other enemies. The two in the storage container on the ship are very easily alerted, but there's a spice bag stored inside it that's necessary loot. I tried opening the door from the side and leaning to get the loot, but they caught me every time due to whatever position they started in. I eventually used the technique of 'opening' the door while blocking it, and grabbing the loot essentially through the door itself (or the tiny crack at the side if you want to be generous). There are enough invisibility potions around that another one would probably have been acceptable here as well.
Once the ship and its secrets had been taken care of, I moved into Building B and finished off the few remaining guards upstairs (along with the one who patrols the stairwell). I also triggered the conversation in front of the building, and knocked those two out quickly once they parted ways. The last guard was the one who stood near the Building B main door. That completed all the knock outs for the level, and all that remained was to clear out the loot.
The only place I had to be cautious was in Mynell's Steaks, with the small spiders running free. Here I was fine with alerting them; I just couldn't let them hit me. Occasionally I had to hop up on the crates to lure them to a position so that I could run for the elevators. To get the silver nugget in the large spider's cell, I used another invisibility potion to get inside, and then ran out. I know that it's possible to do this area without chemical assistance, but it's one of the most tedious rooms to ghost in the game.
Following minimal evidence rules, I avoided the alternate orange door exits and exited from the main ('loading') door of each bay. They close automatically when you open a new one, so the only one I had to close on its own was Mynell's (to avoid letting the spiders out) and the last one I entered (Lord Porter's). I also avoided firing any broadheads in Porter's by using a scouting orb on the painting, and a rope arrow to ascend to the broken lift. Getting all the spice bags in the warehouse without breaking the glass is easily done by using a rope arrow (rope arrows are available within the level).
All in all, a decent level. Not much of a TKO romp, but it's kind of fun to run around the place when you know everyone is out cold.
Galaer on 24/11/2022 at 14:20
I see you got all secrets, but in order to get 2 chests on ship you need to cut them with sword and isn't that against minimal evidence rule? I mean sleeping gas wave wouldn't destroy banners.
Kangra on 24/11/2022 at 22:23
Quote Posted by Galaer
I see you got all secrets, but in order to get 2 chests on ship you need to cut them with sword and isn't that against minimal evidence rule? I mean sleeping gas wave wouldn't destroy banners.
I usually go for max loot just so I can play around with equipment loadout if necessary (though in truth it is almost never is an issue; I don't think it has come up yet but may in a later T2 mission).
The 'minimal evidence' rule is one that is kind of slippery for me. It's not a hard and fast rule for me, but I do try to keep it at a level I'm comfortable with, as with the number of unlit torches (to be fair, one or two torches going out is a lot less evidence than a banner ripping on its own) . Banner ripping I sort of consider along the lines of un-relockable doors or chests. Perhaps it would be better to skip loot (and/or secrets) if it requires property destruction, or 'too much' property destruction. In this case, taking out two banners close by each other might be deemed too much destruction, so skipping one would be better, and both if holding to a certain standard. Certainly a case could be made for 'Perfect' or 'Supreme' along the lines of Ghosting tiers.
In the future, maybe I'll point out loot or secrets that should be skipped to get a more perfect TKO. I already avoid getting equipment in locked places if it's not something that would help to complete the mission.
ladderman on 27/11/2022 at 17:56
I think i've just discovered my playstyle for the Thief trilogy.I must dip my toe back into Garrets world again...
downwinder on 28/11/2022 at 03:06
kinda sad big spiders cant be knocked out :( i know i have been quick enough to reach them in there blind spot and get a solid hit with blackjack on them, they should fix that