Wynne on 25/8/2004 at 11:29
Sorry, best crappy threa title I could think of besides "Generic Newbie Greeting". This is another one of those threads where you get to relive a game you loved through the eyes of a complete newcomer, hopefully with a few extra insights, or possibly with nothing but a glazed bemused look in your eyes of "Why did I click that link?" I love those threads over at the Thief forums, especially now, where newbies to T1 and T2 are so scarce.
Why not stay in the other newbie's thread? Because I'll probably get ahead of him and I don't want him to be spoiled. I don't want to be spoiled, either--that's why I am currently not reading any other thread here besides the little bit of his I read. I am going into this knowing relatively nothing besides such gems as "It's non-linear", "There are spy games and stuff", and... "It's really cool".
To be honest, in starting this game one or two days ago, I began with this basic impression: "Uh... what the hell was everyone making such a fuss about again?" The graphics looked rather ugly. The voice acting of the main character was abominably boring. You couldn't be female, and yet Denton had no personality. I expected more on that front. The endless useless-looking "this is a level, not a real place" hallways and lack of stealth meter made me frown.
I liked that it ran well, at least, on a good resolution and high detail everything. I liked that Lady Liberty had been toppled--that was kinda awesome. Other than that, I pretty much found everything from as bad as horrible to as good as boring. I was ready to start slogging through a game that people only loved out of nostalgia I couldn't feel, and an innovative quality I couldn't appreciate due to having seen it emulated a thousand times in the last four years.
Also, the lack of multitools in the first mission was annoying the piss out of me. And it seemed so short. I prodded a few dudes, jumped over a few crates, ran upstairs, held up the leader, and that was about it.
Then Anna and Hermann bitched at me about not saving a certain agent who was locked in a cell that I FAILED TO RESCUE. Memory stirred. "Oh... there was some kind of thing about an agent locked in a cell, wasn't there?"
Wow. It's that damn non-linear. If you don't haul your own ass to all your objectives, if you don't check continually to see what your goals are, you can miss out. You really get to PICK what you do? You can totally ignore important tasks like saving an agent without being forced to complete them before leaving?
That's so--well... pretty cool, actually. Never seen that before, except in Morrowind, and that was TOO non-linear.
Reload. Essentially starting the mission over again from where I entered. I want to see what's there besides the endless ugly-colored corridors.
Somewhere along the way, I don't know why, but... I start to have... a little bit of fun. I don't know what's doing it. It's very weird. But 'fun' is definitely the word, I come to realize. They make you feel like a real agent. They let you make choices. They let you save people... or not. They give you lemon-lime when you wanted orange, and you KNOW the vendor is out to get you, because the next fifty cans of soda out of that freaking machine are orange. (Hilarious.) And there's something distinctly unique about this game, even beyond the interesting feedback you get on your actions and techniques ("Stealth and speed... I guess that's why you're a special agent.")
Here's one strong impression I have so far, as I cross the boards and climb the ladders to see about this generator the NSF is messing with. The people who said you can't sneak through this game were lame-asses who were full of crap. That Gamespot review I read? Yeah. Crap. Idiot didn't know what he was talking about when he said you had to kill everything. He just didn't use his eyeballs or his brains beyond a quick glance. Maybe I will eat my words and realize I'm the lame-ass who's full of crap, but so far I have not been forced to make even a _single kill_. In fact, sneaking has been fairly easy, except for the lack of prod ammo in the first mission. (I hate that.) It's easier than in Thief. It's easier than it was in bleeding SPLINTER CELL, which is a game ABOUT stealth. Deus Ex isn't. In this one, I hop up over some crates, I climb through an elevator shaft or ventilation duct, and I easily get the drop on some dillweed terrorist. I sneak around like wild, and only kill when not doing so would mean I might risk a hostage, in which case I happily blast their asses to hell. Anyone who threatens innocents deserves it, in my book.
I found an underground area Smuggler pointed me to, and after observing that place as well as Paul's behavior and listening to what has been said about big bro, I'm thinking he uncovered some sort of big dirty secret about UNATCO. Probably the whole Gray Death experimentation has to do with it rather than the NSF, and the NSF is trying to expose what's going on, it's just that some of their methods really suck and they're terrified so they're going for the drastic. Those are my guesses so far. Of course, I could be talking out of my ass. If I'm not right, I at least know there's something up with UNATCO. Paul clearly saw something that made him want to stop murdering people all over the place. It could be that he's a double agent, working for the NSF, but right now my instincts are telling me Paul is trying to protect any decent people he finds anywhere from some kind of screwed-up conspiracy.
Finally, I enjoy some of the characters. I didn't at first, but some have grown on me. Anna's a bitch, but I'm nasty right back to her, so it's fun. Hermann is cute and I just want to snuggle him. Some of the UNATCO soldiers are adorable. Alex Jacobson is my new best friend. I don't know why, but I think he rocks. I'm always happy to see that little geek on my infolink screen.
Oh, and all that bonus stuff is pretty neat. Paul's secret room in the hotel was fun to find, interesting undeliverable mail message, and the explanations for augmentations are very interesting.
If the fun level keeps increasing at this rate I will eventually explode. If it simply levels off here I will still be a very happy woman.
Jonesy on 25/8/2004 at 11:46
Quote:
To be honest, in starting this game one or two days ago, I began with this basic impression: "Uh... what the hell was everyone making such a fuss about again?" The graphics looked rather ugly. The voice acting of the main character was abominably boring. You couldn't be female, and yet Denton had no personality. I expected more on that front. The endless useless-looking "this is a level, not a real place" hallways and lack of stealth meter made me frown.
The graphics were based on the Unreal Engine, which was far ahead of its time. If you look at the date when this came out, it was about 2000\2001, in which time 3dFX reigned supreme, so the Glide Drivers were the ones that were written the best.
I loved Denton's voice, simply cause it was so deadpan. You are the one putting the emotions/words in the guy's mouth, so it fits the scenario. I found it much better than the voices for the main character in the new one, as the voice acting was horrible. (Ie, saying What's going on?, about 30 times in the first level.)
NHJ BV on 25/8/2004 at 17:04
I too just recently got this game, but I really don't mind the somewhat dated graphics. I only mind it in cutscenes because everyone's faces look too blocky and all that. For the rest, I don't care about graphics as long as it's somewhat decent-looking.
And multitools look like my dad's cellphone.
ACT SMILEY on 25/8/2004 at 19:38
Quote:
If you look at the date when this came out, it was about 2000\2001, in which time 3dFX reigned suprime, so the Glide Drivers were the ones that were written the best.
Not quite, by half way through 2000 everyone was more on about how it had "nice performance with glide but did they skip the last year good of non-3dfx hardware" and stuff like that - after all, it came out around the same time as the Geforce 1. The glide stuff's better because even at the time the build of the unreal engine was an old one, even though they certainly made it pretty good for the time.
Jonesy on 25/8/2004 at 19:55
Well yeah, but when I first played Unreal (after I just finished Half-Life), I was astounded at the level of visual quality. They really put a lot of effort into that engine, and it really speaks, since numerous games actually still use the same basic Unreal Warfare engine.
Course, it was also like a slideshow. One of my friends was asking me what I was doing, and I said "Waiting for Unreal to catchup."
Wyclef on 26/8/2004 at 00:57
>The graphics looked rather ugly. <
Yeah, that was my first impression of the Liberty Island level. After trying to prod people in the neck (as with a blackjack) and failing at it, I shelved the game until only recently, when I tried again and overcame my initial reluctance.
Deiyen on 26/8/2004 at 07:29
Yay, always interested in what you have to say Wynne, and now especially about one of my favorite games. You brought up a few good points.
"The graphics looked rather ugly." Yea, I'd agree there, but like everyone's pointed out, this is a pretty old game now, it was good back when it first came out.
"The endless useless-looking 'this is a level, not a real place' hallways and lack of stealth meter made me frown." I think the architecture is awesome, it definitely gets better as you go on. It also may be interesting to note that Liberty Island is pretty much exactly right as in real life, other than a few size and scale problems. When I first played, I absolutely hated the no stealth meter also, but you'll get used to it, as it seems you have. It's just a different sneaking technique than Thief.
"It's that damn non-linear. If you don't haul your own ass to all your objectives, if you don't check continually to see what your goals are, you can miss out. You really get to PICK what you do?" This extends to non-plot-specific things too, all the way down to something as small as an extra line by an NPC if you knock out an innocent pedestrian.
"In fact, sneaking has been fairly easy, except for the lack of prod ammo in the first mission. (I hate that.)" Minor spoiler you might not want to hear, so I'll cover it. If you find a baton, it acts exactly like the blackjack in Thief, but you have to hit them in the back.
"If the fun level keeps increasing at this rate I will eventually explode."
Careful everyone... [hands out raincoats]
ZylonBane on 27/8/2004 at 15:08
Quote Posted by Wynne
Anna's a bitch, but I'm nasty right back to her, so it's fun.
Just bear in mind that, as in real life, being nasty to people can cause them to be,
ahem, less helpful than they might be otherwise.
Did you find the sunken freighter on Liberty Island? And remember that pilfering other people's offices at UNATCO HQ is encouraged. :thumb:
Jonesy on 27/8/2004 at 16:15
And look at the Alex Jacobsen's floor panels in his office very closely.... You might find something. ;)
Wynne on 27/8/2004 at 21:35
Quote Posted by Deiyen
Yay, always interested in what you have to say Wynne, and now especially about one of my favorite games. You brought up a few good points.
Aww, thank you. :)
About the graphics, folks, I actually disagree with myself now. The first level is, ironically, the ugliest level I've seen in the game. The graphics get steadily more impressive, and now that I'm in Hong Kong, range from slightly bland at the rare worst to really nice-looking even if it weren't an old game.
I have been reading walkthroughs a little bit after playing through a section just to see what I could have done. Although Paul is dead (I stayed and searched wildly for him after the fight was over, but never saw where he went, and eventually left) I am itching to go back (and will on another play-through) to see what it's like when he's alive. WOW. That's pretty revolutionary, isn't it? Even in recent games, I've rarely seen such choices. You can kill others at multiple points in the game, too, of course. I killed Anna on the plane and Alex covered up for me. SO. COOL. I killed Maggie Chow in the bowels of the Level 2 labs, but I had much earlier discovered her true nature after noticing that her computer was linked to Majestic 12-net and beating her squads into submission.
Another bonus to this game is that it is FRIGGIN' HUGE. And I can't believe that revisiting sections I've already seen--which in basically every game I've ever played, including Thief 2's Lost City, sucked or felt like a retread--actually makes me feel excited. I am back in Hell's Kitchen, and I LIKE being there, even though it makes me feel a little sad due to Paul being croaked. I guess it's because things actually change around here, from level to level, so it feels
real, like going back to a place you've visited rather than playing a level again.
Since most of the things that annoyed me about this game weren't properly represented in the review I read, and the vast majority of what I am loving about it wasn't even discussed, I am thinking the reviewer was a moron. Where's Greg Kasavin when you need him?
Quote:
Minor spoiler you might not want to hear, so I'll cover it.
If you find a baton, it acts exactly like the blackjack in Thief, but you have to hit them in the back.DOH. And here I've been running around with the prod all this time... I'll remember that for next time! I've actually regressed to killing in regards to Majestic 12 soldiers, though--UNATCO and riot cops don't know what they're fighting, but the MJ12ers deserve what they get, the way I figure it. And while the melee combat, such as with the Dragon Tooth sword, is pretty lame/disappointing, blasting things with the plasma and sniper rifles is WAY fun.
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Just bear in mind that, as in real life, being nasty to people can cause them to be,
ahem, less helpful than they might be otherwise.
Really? Wow, ZylonBane, thanks. I guess I can learn a lot about sensitivity and tact from you. :cheeky:
Quote:
Did you find the sunken freighter on Liberty Island?
Oooh... no, I didn't! Yet another thing to go back and explore when I play again. I can't believe how rich this game is with possibilities and things to do. :) I hardly ever replay games anymore--there's always another one to go on to--but this one definitely deserves a second go. Quite possibly a third, and a fourth...
Quote:
And remember that pilfering other people's offices at UNATCO HQ is encouraged. :thumb:
You don't need to tell a taffer twice! I never could keep my sticky fingers off of other people's things.
Quote Posted by Jonesy
And look at the Alex Jacobsen's floor panels in his office very closely.... You might find something. ;)
I did look--probing Shannon for information brought me the clue, but unfortunately I am blind and despite searching, I didn't uncover the stash.
One of the best things about this game, something I've never experienced before, is that it shoves you through with the urgency of what I saw in the Call of Duty demos--yet, this is a HUGE game, and the events feel... changeable. All over. Not just in select places like Splinter Cell: PT, but everywhere. It feels like you not only
can influence events, but you
have to. Like you're driving things as much as everybody else is. That's what blows me away about this game, all questions of graphics and too-plentiful corridors aside. I don't know where I'm being taken or where I'm going, but it's not just the first of the two that's important. I actually get to choose where I'm going. Even Morrowind doesn't match that feeling because the characters were so impersonal--improved from Daggerfall, but not approaching the level I'd like to see. With this game, they were so smart that even the cookie-cutter UNATCO soldiers felt independent. They never seem to say the same thing.
It's that focus on making the gamer feel like they're in a moving, breathing world that can change at the drop of a hat--your base changing from UNATCO in NY to Tracer Tong's secret labs in Hong Kong, and who knows where from here--that makes this game like nothing I've ever played before.
Daedalus intrigues me, and I just really like Alex. Maggie Chow had me going there for a minute; my sadness over Paul's death made me want to believe her. I was sorry to know Anna was a traitor, sorry to know I'd alienated Gunther, curious whether he knew what was going on or whether he hated me out of misguided loyalty. I wonder what happened to Private Lloyd. I've been rabidly reluctant to kill UNATCO soldiers at any point in the game, partly in case I might hit him and not know it. When a game can make you feel like you have
friends in it, you know it's a rare creation.
P.S. Am I the only one who totally laughed like a maniac while pretending to dance at the Lucky Money? Strafe, strafe, jump, jump, crouch whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirl, ahahahaha!!! Uh, maybe I shouldn't have admitted that... :erm:
