BEAR on 7/2/2007 at 17:36
Course, we tried that in somalia and look how that turned out. I think the general outlook towards america is so shit that nobody would care how much we helped them.
They would take our money and other organizations hopefully could use it for good but america might as well stay out as it would turn against us anyways.
Shayde on 7/2/2007 at 19:04
Bear you make America sound like a benevolent benefactor to ungrateful children. But take a look at the effect debt conditionality has had on African nations who have accepted aid and loans, and you will get a very different scenario.
I am by no means pointing the finger at America in isolation. This is a (
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/SAP.asp) global issue.
SD on 7/2/2007 at 19:54
It's nice and convenient to blame the West for all of Africa's problems, but that's ever so slightly facile I'm sorry to say.
I mean, that article there blames "economic liberalisation" for continued poverty, when quite the reverse has been true in the past. For example, Ethiopia's famine in the 80s came about because of the policy of Mengistu's communist regime of removing property rights, thus eradicating all the coping mechanisms that should have kicked in when the inevitable drought (they are on an 8-year drought cycle, like the American Mid-West) arrived.
At the same time, Kenya suffered from an identical drought caused by the same weather pattern, on an area with twice the population density of the affected Ethiopian areas. Kenya, however, suffered no famine, having built up foreign reserves and the infrastructure that come with free trade.
Not to excuse the US withdrawing aid it had promised, of course, but I do think the continent's problems are a bit more complex than WEST RAPING AFRICA RARGH!!1
Shayde on 7/2/2007 at 20:08
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
I do think the continent's problems are a bit more complex than WEST RAPING AFRICA RARGH!!1
I have not said this at all! Though I dare you to deny that it is a contributing factor. Deny that certain structural adjustment policies have been designed to benefit Northern states to the detriment of Southern states.
That said, rampant corruption and a culture of kleptocracy play a huge role in African poverty and lack of development. Granted this can be attributed (to a degree) to the systems inherited from colonialism but should mostly be owned by African states themselves.
I would never oversimplify the situation and place the blame solely at the door of others. My linking that article was a response to BEAR's characterisation of America
Zygoptera on 7/2/2007 at 20:32
StD, freemarket warrior!
The double whammy of conditional loans effectively mandating luxury crops such as bananas or coffee be grown on the best agricultural land, and the agricultural subsidies which artificially reduce the price of staple goods pretty much guarantee that large areas of Africa will frequently be dependent on the west for food aid, even if they were run efficiently. Talking about the free market with anything related to agriculture is a poor joke so long as the CAPs budget alone is larger than most African countries' budgets and couldn't fuck them over more effectively if it was designed to.
SD on 7/2/2007 at 20:58
Quote Posted by Shayde
I have not said this at all!
Fair enough, though that certainly
seemed to be the overwhelming thrust of the site you linked to ;)
Quote:
Though I dare you to deny that it is a contributing factor.
I won't deny that Western nations have hardly covered themselves in glory with regards to the way that they deal with African issues. I was just pointing out that it doesn't all boil down to that.
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
The double whammy of conditional loans effectively mandating luxury crops such as bananas or coffee be grown on the best agricultural land, and the agricultural subsidies which artificially reduce the price of staple goods pretty much guarantee that large areas of Africa will frequently be dependent on the west for food aid, even if they were run efficiently. Talking about the free market with anything related to agriculture is a poor joke so long as the CAPs budget alone is larger than most African countries' budgets and couldn't fuck them over more effectively if it was designed to.
Couldn't disagree with that. If we're talking about ways that Western countries do wrong by Africa, then market subsidies would be top of my list.
If it was up to me, I'd abolish all protectionist measures tomorrow, but unfortunately, European citizens seem way more inclined to elect dodgy social democrats and conservatives than liberals, so the chances of that happening seem pretty remote at present.
fett on 8/2/2007 at 00:33
Shayde, correct me if I'm wrong, but you can walk into most African grocers and find Coke, Twinkies, and every other 'western' manufactured/owned product, but very little local merchandise. The West has not played fair at all when it comes to trade, if my understanding of economics is any good (actually it's shit, so anyone who knows should 'splain this better).
Aerothorn on 8/2/2007 at 00:51
Quote Posted by fett
Personally, I'm sorry that we ever allowed a sack of shit person like Bush to be elected as our leader.
For some reason I thought that you voted for Bush - was this not the case?
fett on 8/2/2007 at 01:04
Yep - not because I was a fan, but because Kerry seemed like a wank. If I'd known then what I know now, I would've voted for Barny the fucking Dinosaur before voting for Bush. This is why I apologize and feel especially bad about the whole thing. Major, major blindspot on my part. I've also had a pretty radical change of heart about everything from politics to religion since then. I won't make the same mistake twice, and it feels wretched to live with the knowledge that I helped perpetuate this whole fucked up administration. :mad: :(
Hindsight.
Mortal Monkey on 8/2/2007 at 01:32
Quote Posted by BEAR
Up my taxes to fund aid programs to poor countries with nothing? Go right ahead.
You shouldn't even have to pay more taxes. While it's common knowledge that us Norwegians are spoiled assholes, we upped our support to around 0.8% gross national product without complaining. Admittedly, for a country with so much money and so few people, we've still got a while to go.
But I digress. What I really wanted to say, was that I thought Norway was bad - until is saw the figures for USA. A tad over 0.1%, if my sources are correct. That's just shameful.
