jtr7 on 14/3/2013 at 15:20

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I don't care if the game tells the player not to be violent, but if it's a Thief game, it will apply that to the story and Garrett as a character, hopefully in a different way each mission. The older games already have told the player not to be violent in a specified, plot-centered, variable degree, as the story plays out, and maintaining that is important to me. Thief is considered a stealth game, and I believe it is and that was the intent. So, that informs the Thief brand. If Thief 4 lets the players do anything they want, and gives them more tools than ever that have no stealth use, then that tells me stealth isn't as important. Until I start seeing at least equally expanded stealth choices, I can only assume things based on what the devs are saying or are being quoted as saying, and what those marketing and workplace words usually mean in the industry.

TDS was as if the devs gave into the players calling for more violent freedoms. T4 will likely take further what TDS started, rather than going back to the roots, where Thief was too different, and not really fun, for the FPS crowd who didn't take to the idea of slowing down, feeling more vulnerable. There are too many stories shared of people who came at Thief hard and were frustrated and annoyed, until it clicked, and then it spoiled gaming forever, and the other gamers who've come and gone from here who couldn't enjoy the game with the lousy combat and insta-fails for killing, or always getting caught charging through.

I'm often taking many things into account in one statement, and it would be worse for everyone for me to break it all down every damned time for this person or that, eh? In fact, you are unknowingly admitting you never saw me clarify what I did spell out for you or another poster. Not everything in my posts is "arguing against", it's also arguing for, providing information, giving background so you might see how I came to think of something the way I do, and hoping. Condensed is too dense, and more clarification is TL;DR, with you guys. Other than shutting up and going away--not gonna happen--it's damned if I do or don't. You don't want weird and vague but I cannot break the code of how you arrive at one conclusion from what I know I said. I know the problem is on your end when I state something just for you and you never noticed. That's not vagary at all. Interpretation from redacted statements is going to be weird and inaccurate, hahaha! And I'm not in control of which words or sentences are getting gutted.




Forget the violence as you think I'm talking about it. I'm not. I have said that it's the attention given to it by the devs that concerns me, how the FPS crowd will choose the playing method that clears AIs from the screen if they have the chance, and that it has to come at a cost to the stealth. It has to. What is the cost? We don't yet know, but I expect new players to rarely notice the mechanics built around staying unseen and unheard. They already don't in TDP! It's as devs keep saying in convention talks and articles: given the choice, the player will choose the one that gives them the greatest advantage, and in Thief, the greatest advantage comes from the least intuitive choice, because people don't think it's rewarding to go around a room of AIs.

Ghosting in Thief is a player invention, not an LGS one, so I would expect a faithful game to not impose it much and not favor it much. It's an extreme the devs never built for, except after reading about it on the boards. It would be great if ghosting was built into every mission, making it the first fully Supreme Ghostable Thief game ever, because it would mean that the middle-of-the-road players who go organically from sneaking to killing as the mood arises would have that freedom, and those who are non-violent--unlike myself--have the choice they've always had in the series.

I have stated the truth that I myself am not a ghoster, and I am not a non-violent player, and that I only don't want expanded methods and equipment for achieving violent ends, and not just out of preference, but because every addition creates exponential potential for bugs and unforeseen consequences the devs will never account for, and at this scale, the devs will have resorted to harsh control measures to cap emergent possibilities to hold the game together.

I don't care if you play as a mass-murderer/serial killer who steals, but the design considerations to allow you to do that impose changes on the design of most aspects. TDS wasn't tightened up enough, so the lack of considerations has harmed or removed the option tangibly when trying to play in the style of older Thief. T4 needs to give the stealth the greater consideration, but creating the violent options is mathematically much more involved, and mathematically improves sales.


In order to tell you what it is about modern games that is problematic for myself and others saying the same things their own way, I would have to write a thesis to gather it in one place. I won't. But I have written them out dozens of times, and others have written it out, and they aren't getting read because JTR7;DR. There are others who have simply posted whole-hearted agreement where one of us has stated things that apply to them, too. The burden is on you to see these things. I don't know how you miss it so completely, not just struggle with my wording. I wish you were just confused. It would be a lot easier. I cannot proceed until you see what was provided in the context given.



Hell, I don't know what you want. I only know what we want and hope we get it at least once every decade.

retractingblinds on 14/3/2013 at 16:57

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(https://www.gameinformer.com/p/thief.aspx) - hub of info
(http://imgur.com/a/awqdy#0) - original article that kicked off the thifourf hype train

King No One on 14/3/2013 at 20:13

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There are a number of video interviews knocking around online. The one about Garrett was posted by Briareos H in the 'Officially Announced thread

Linky Link:

(http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2013/03/13/meet-the-new-garrett-from-thief.aspx)

There are links to other two videos (I know of) as well as the published articles on the other threads. The number of threads is multiplying fast so sorry for not having those links to offer

Yamatotakeru on 14/3/2013 at 20:21

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Because of that mask (and the scar) the new Garrett really looks like Rikimaru from Tenchu, only with a hood.

Well, I don't know... some of the stuff they say like "For the modern audience of today's console market.", when quoted out of context, sounds kind of like an insult towards console gamers. But when I checked that video, I honestly don't know what to think... it's still pretty difficult to be sure what character the new Garrett'll be. What they say doesn't sound that bad to me, but I feel somewhat more reserved. Waiting for some gameplay and story footage :P .

Starker on 14/3/2013 at 20:39

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Well, sure, they both wear eyeshadow and commit acts of terrorism.