Thief's hero redesigned to be 'more mainstream'...relative to internal designs - by retractingblinds
Celtic_Thief on 14/3/2013 at 09:08
I want to believe. I really do...
jtr7 on 14/3/2013 at 09:18
Quote Posted by retractingblinds
I would like to know which ones the article are referring to myself. Likely a jab at the X crystal arrows being replaced with real-world items.
Sorry, I didn't know you were quoting someone else in those sentences.
jay pettitt on 14/3/2013 at 09:37
Something that occurs is, well, what an odd, curious, non-sensical bunch of things to say.
That Garrett isn't a Goth even though the world is Gothic has been mentioned a couple of times. As if potential customers might somehow be confused. Gothic architecture is where the Goths live as everyone knows. Seriously?
All of which (+ general cynicism) makes me wonder if the T4 devs are really just saying what they think their bosses and the publisher want to hear them say rather than communicating (let alone developing) for the customer.
Renzatic on 14/3/2013 at 09:49
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
All of which (+ general cynicism) makes me wonder if the T4 devs are really just saying what they think their bosses and the publisher want to hear them say rather than communicating (let alone developing) for the customer.
I'm sure that explains about 99% of all gaming journalism. Even with supposedly deep, cerebral games like Firaxis' Civ series and XCOM, most of the video clips and talking points centered on the graphics and giant explosions.
retractingblinds on 14/3/2013 at 10:09
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
All of which (+ general cynicism) makes me wonder if the T4 devs are really just saying what they think their bosses and the publisher want to hear them say rather than communicating (let alone developing) for the customer.
This doesn't sound farfetched. I mean, while I think Eidos Montreal is a rather disorganized studio with a scatterbrained approach to game design (as dx3 is any indication) there seems to be a lot of qualms within the team regarding upper management. I mean, they lost the entire Thief 4 team. Twice. They lost two entirely separate teams. No explanation as to why they left, but my guess would have to be
creative differences. Part of my brain is also reminding me that I read a statement about disagreements with upper management. How the EM teams wanted to do their own thing, but upper management insisted certain features must be a part of their works. If anything it would explain the hamfisted implementation of cutscenes, takedowns, everything being hackable, and the more than rough around the edges cover system of deus ex 3. Among this, I feel certain that I've read that Eidos Montreal picked Thief and Deus Ex to work on in particular. I don't know for sure, and I'll be doing some sleuthing around for sources, but I gotta say I don't think all this distress they are causing fans is their intention. At least not Eidos Montreal.
SubJeff on 14/3/2013 at 10:15
Quote Posted by Renzatic
I'm sure that explains about 99% of all gaming journalism. Even with supposedly deep, cerebral games like Firaxis' Civ series and XCOM, most of the video clips and talking points centered on the graphics and giant explosions.
It's odd isn't it? No game is really defined by its explosions, even action games. It's the gameplay concept that defines the experience.
Renzatic on 14/3/2013 at 10:42
Right, but pure gameplay clips generally don't make for good trailers.
The games industry is a strange thing, really. Most designers are people like us. They're in the business because they like making games, like playing them. More often than not, they want their games to be good. With Thief, I'm about 99% sure they're aware of the previous titles, and what made them great. They'll add their own flavoring to the mix, sure, but they won't be going out of their way to morph the series from what we know into a straight up wham-bam high intensity action game.
On the other hand, you have the marketers. They're convinced everything has to look and sound like another Call of Duty game. They'll want the trailers and advertisements to be as edgy and action packed as they can possibly be. They'll have their studio heads talking up the graphics and blood effects, and throwing out lines like "...in a bleak world of darkness, one dark man decided to steal some stuff to prevent more darkness from darkening by killing a load of dudes with extreme prejudice". It might not be truly representative of the actual game, but they're all convinced it'll be what sells it to the masses, so it's what we'll end up seeing.
This is why everyone here should take all the marketing spiel with a grain of salt. It's like movie trailers in a way. I can't count the amount of good movies I initially missed out on because the trailers made them look absolutely cheesy and horrible. Chances are good it'll be the same way for Thief.
jtr7 on 14/3/2013 at 11:14
If it were faithful to the original core design values, the marketing spiel wouldn't be so much further toward the action end of the spectrum. It remains to be seen if the marketing will push beyond what it did for TDS, which actually was way more loose about the killing sprees across the board, minus the training. The marketing for TDS just introduced the idea that it wasn't enough that the player could kill for no reason, but the player could do it indiscriminately, at any time, and rub it in witnesses faces, and except for how the marketing depicted that last part, it was true.
Most game designers are not people like us who are disillusioned with the industry, but yes, they are like most gamers, and it's entirely expected that they will make games for gamers and cash. This is what's disappointing. LGS made games for game designers to enjoy, not knowing if the gamer customers would like it, too.
If they sought to make a game that separates itself from today's games in an equivalent of the way Thief did in its day, but without the limitations of a proprietary engine, I doubt the marketing and dev statements would sound alarms to the established fandom. There's a degree of embellishment expected, but the devs aren't even shying away from speaking plainly on the very changes the minority have never wanted to any degree.
Renzatic on 14/3/2013 at 11:18
Quote Posted by jtr7
If it were faithful to the original core design values, the marketing spiel wouldn't be so much further toward the action end of the spectrum. It remains to be seen if the marketing will push beyond what it did for TDS, which actually
was way more loose about the killing sprees across the board, minus the training. The inaccurate marketing embellishment for TDS just introduced the idea that it wasn't enough that the player could kill for no reason, but the player could do it indiscriminately, at any time, and rub it in witnesses faces.
It's been a long time since I played Thief 3, but I'm pretty sure I remember being able to set the game to fail if you killed anyone during a mission. It hardly endorsed massive murder sprees. At least no more than Thief 1 & 2 did.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Most game designers are not people like us who are disillusioned with the industry, but yes, they are like most gamers, and it's entirely expected that they will make games for gamers and cash. LGS made games for game designers to enjoy, not knowing if the customers would like it, too.
That's just it. I'm not disillusioned with the gaming industry. I have no reason to be. Yeah, sure. There have been a few dry years where no great games have come out, but it's not much different now than it was during the late 90's. You've got a few really good games to choose from, some that are okay, and a bunch that are crap. Same as it's always been.
Hell, when you consider the huge kickstarter spree that's been going on recently, it almost is the 90's again.
jtr7 on 14/3/2013 at 12:02
I was disillusioned a decade before Thief came out, and even though some games had come out that I would've enjoyed, I had no means to acquire or play them, so it passed me by, and has stayed back there in the past. Thief gave me a layered game that didn't condescend to me as a player, and avoided many things that I had been disappointed or frustrated with. TDS brought back some of those disappointments and frustrations, and because of the times, brought in a buncha new ones. Thief[4] is going to build more on TDS than TDP, or it wouldn't sell well enough to recoup 5 years of expenses making it. It's great most of you can just enjoy gaming and never even notice things that are like great walls blocking some of us, which old Thief never had.
A faithful new game would give you want you want, yet give me more of what I enjoyed and the option to clear out what ruins gaming for me for most missions--I'd never expect all missions to be perfect for me, 'cause not all of the old missions were.
For TDS, I've never seen the restriction changes per difficulty level compared, and there was no setting to adjust for killing but for overall difficulty. No one's listed it out like has been done dozens of times for the older titles. All of the texts discouraging killing are almost nil in TDS, and there are texts flat-out encouraging it. It's a reversal, as if the devs had said nevermind, go ahead.
I'd like to see a TDS vid demonstrating insta-fails for killing a single human on Expert, in any mission but the first, and I'll give the player up to 3 human deaths in a mission on Expert. I'd like to see a real screenshot of the game warning the player off of killing under Notes or Restrictions.
Here's a comparison of the gamefiles for each in the trilogy. I don't know which ones are never used, never seen, in TDS, 'cause I don't know. I haven't played TDS enough to experiment with different approaches to missions, and only played through once on Normal, before real life demanded too much of my attention:
Quote:
T1/G:
"Pull off the job without having to kill anyone."
"Violence is the mark of the amateur. Don't kill anyone."
"A master thief should be proficient enough to avoid murder."
"Littering the opera house with blood and corpses is not worthy of a master thief such as yourself. So pickpocket, rob, steal, hide, and even run if you have to, but don't kill anyone."
"A true professional doesn't leave a mess. Don't kill anyone!"
T2:
"Even though everyone loyal to the Sheriff deserves to feel your wrath, it's better not to create more problems than you already have. Don't kill anyone."
"It's hard to imagine why you'd need to kill anybody on a job like this. Anyway, don't do it."
"Killing people is unnecessary. But destroying Mechanist security machines is not an issue."
"Killing is the mark of an amateur. Don't kill anyone."
"The frame won't stick if the City Watch suspects you were involved. Don't knock out or kill anyone."
"You're a thief, not a murderer. Being the professional that you are, you can pull off this job without killing anyone."
"Violence is the mark of amateurs -- and Mechanists. You are neither; don't kill anyone during your explorations."
"No need for any rough stuff. Don't kill anybody."
"You're a thief, not a murderer. If you catch up with the wounded pagan, or come across any other humans, don't kill them."
"Jenivere would be aghast if anybody died because of this. Don't kill anyone."
T3:
T_LoadingHelp27, Tip: "Shoot an unaware human opponent in the head or chest to kill him in one hit."
T_LoadingHelp45, Tip: "You can backstab with the dagger by sneaking behind an unaware opponent."
T_LoadingHelp46, Stealth tip: "Knocking your opponents unconscious is more stealthy than killing them."
DontKillNonComb_001000: "Do not kill any non-combatants."
MaxKill0_001000: "Do not kill anyone."
MaxKill1_001000: "Kill no more than 1 opponent."
MaxKill_001000: "Kill no more than n opponents."
MinKill1_001000: "Kill at least 1 opponent."
MinKill_001000: "Kill at least n opponents."
From the older titles' manuals:
Quote:
Sometimes, thieving can be made
easier by a measured application of force. Usually, this
means a stealthy sword-blow from behind, or a well-placed arrow shot from a place of
concealment. In a
desperate situation, a frontal one-on-one melee may be the best option.
If two or more guards are bearing down on you,
running away is almost always a better
option than fighting. Hey, it's always good to have options.
And in these discussions, regarding a need to escape, or how to take down undead, the flashbomb is always forgotten.
All those TDS MaxKill texts haven't been pinned down by fans to the missions they appear in, unlike each of the older titles, so I can't even do my research on the subject, other than what I saw when playing and what I've seen in every gameplay video that wasn't a speed-run. How many taffers kept failing Framed for attacking too many guards over and over? Heh heh.
