Thief Universe, storyline, lore... etc... - by Bulgarian_Taffer
Starker on 23/3/2013 at 06:10
Quote Posted by jtr7
Like I said, still there in TMA, not overwhelming.
Eh... That's not the point... They might just as well not have been there. You had to go out of your way to even see them. You never had to plan your equipment accordingly and they had zero impact on the story or the missions that you took.
jtr7 on 23/3/2013 at 06:17
Just play the mission and you will run across them. It kept the continuity, too, after 101 Undead (sounds like a spoof movie) in Thief Gold, not to mention all the monsters, it would be weird to eliminate them. You didn't have to plan ahead for them because there were no hordes. Since they didn't bother you in TMA, and meant nothing in your opinion, then let that be enough to leave 'em alone.
Anyway, I'd argue that the Phantoms of the massacred Pagan villagers in Beck O' The Wills are part of the plot.
How much of a sense of a larger world, more going on than Garrett's goals, and all the flavor story should be stripped out? If one thing's not important, why is another? How many AIs in the missions were important to the plot and not out of the way?
I also have no reason to believe the Masked Servants are not a form of undead or suspended death. And, if TIIGold was made, the subplot of Azaran the Cruel from Mages' Towers and Life of the Party would've be revised to involve a mission in the mountains to destroy the Book of Ash before a demon was conjured (ugh!) by Azaran's necromancer followers.
12 out of 16 Thief Gold missions had no undead. Creatures filled 'em out, and some missions had no living humans at all, so it feels denser looking back. 101 undead in all.
6 out of 14 Metal Age missions had no undead. Metal creatures filled most of 'em out, and all mission had living humans. Up to 28 undead in all, with two repeats.
11 out of 15 Deadly Shadows missions/quests had no undead. Lots of humans filled 'em out, and creatures, and Enforcers. 31 to 43 undead in all.
Starker on 23/3/2013 at 06:45
There's zero continuity between Thief and Newthief, though. EM has, as they themselves put it, carte blanche for whatever they want to do. Any element they take from Thief will have to fit the new game. Them including slow lumbering zombies, for example, might mesh horribly with a new fast acrobatic Garrett.
I would actually argue that the decision not to include undead (in a significant capacity) made TMA the better game. TDP always felt too inconsistent for me for all its variety. It was like it wasn't exactly sure what it wants to be. I wouldn't have actually minded if some of the more tombraideresque elements were removed entirely. TMA had a more cohesive and unified theme and for me, it was where it seemed the series finally had found its footing.
Captain Spandex on 23/3/2013 at 07:40
Quote Posted by Starker
I would actually argue that the decision not to include undead (in a significant capacity) made TMA the better game. TDP always felt too inconsistent for me for all its variety. It was like it wasn't exactly sure what it wants to be. I wouldn't have actually minded if some of the more tombraideresque elements were removed entirely. TMA had a more cohesive and unified theme and for me, it was where it seemed the series finally had found its footing.
Absolutely.
According to (
http://gambit.mit.edu/podcasts/lgs/podcast4_randy_smith.mp3) Randy Smith, (
http://gambit.mit.edu/podcasts/lgs/podcast3_tim_laura_sara.mp3) Tim Stellmach, and pretty much anyone who's ever been interviewed on the subject, Looking Glass inserted those zombie/undead/tomb raiding missions to hedge their bets commercially. The entire concept of the game being 'full-on stealth' reputedly only materialized only a few months from release, and they weren't sure how the concept would perform. (Under pressure from Eidos, no less! The very same thing so many taffers suggest 'ruined' Deadly Shadows! Oh, sweet irony!)
Zombies, though?
This was 1998. the same year Resident Evil 2 broke all kinds of sales records. Zombies were big business. People will argue 'you didn't have to be a zombie slayer', but that's how the developers intended missions like the Bonehoard to be tackled. As straight action. That you could sneak around them, in some cases, was probably incidental. The sheer volume of zombies in the Bonehoard, or burricks in the Lost City seems to suggest that, at any rate.
I also think the simple fact that TMA cut those sort of missions out lends the few undead the game does have a good deal more weight. All I can remember from my first foray into the Bonehoard is annoyance and frustration, whereas all I can recall from my first visit to Gervaisius' Library is sheer terror.
SubJeff on 23/3/2013 at 11:33
I kind of agree with Spandex on this. Bonehoard did lend itself to combat, but more sneak and strike than in your face fighting.
I had TG and there was a Fireshadow to contend with so you couldn't run around willy nilly. I don't remember if that was TG only though.
Disturbation on 23/3/2013 at 11:58
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
I kind of agree with Spandex on this. Bonehoard did lend itself to combat, but more sneak and strike than in your face fighting.
Really? I think I just ran around waking and collecting as many zombies as I could before flashing them to death, dozens at a time. There were a little too many of them there, but I liked the use of undead in other (TG) missions.
jtr7 on 23/3/2013 at 12:16
Thief encourages killing what is already dead. It does not forbid at any time, destroying them, and that is another genius reason to have them to begin with. You can go off on these abominations and not be a murderer. There's no doubt in my mind it's a reason the LGS devs put so many in in their experimental game. I'm surprised it surprises so many, and people think everyone who wants to discourage killing people in the game (not forbid it) is pushing to play the Lytha Way. Go for it! They are there to take out your habitual impulses on! The living creatures, however, straddle the line, and personally, I don't mind, but also have no need to clear them out, unless I'm exploring areas thoroughly with little game time.
Also, there's a serious gap in some people's knowledge of the tools of their trade. Flashbombs are as effective as holy water, and when an undead mission shows flashbombs in the store, it's more than a hint. Strangely, while TDP-through-TMA's flashbombs are not plentiful and take two or more to take out an undead AI, TDS gave generously of them and it only takes one decently thrown flashbomb to take out an undead AI. No fear here. I love strolling through The Cradle and erasing all the undead while I can, and doing Lauryl's chores with no stress. Playing Return to the Cathedral with no knowledge of backstabbing prepared me plenty.
Holy crap, I was looking again at the Cradle's odd moon, 'cause I couldn't remember exactly how it was represented, obscured by clouds in my mind, and I thought to check the other maps. After looking at three more maps... Do they all have full moons all the time? Or is there some phase difference from game Day to Day, for over 9 days? Other than that initial disappointment, I thought the Cradle's extra large moon with the breathing blue corona was a nice call-back to TDP/Gold, intentional or not, to "Benny" in Assassins! telling the rumor/legend he'd heard about the barricaded Old Quarter having a different moon. :D
Alvar on 23/3/2013 at 12:17
Quote Posted by Disturbation
ran around waking and collecting as many zombies as I could before flashing them to death, dozens at a time.
hehehe, I did the same. There was that small spiral staircase that led down into the water. After getting many zombies all together chasing me around that area, I would jump up onto the ledge of the staircase so they would all freeze. Then I would shoot some holy water into the crowd as they helplessly exploded one group at a time. :cheeky:
jtr7 on 23/3/2013 at 12:37
The first time I played TDP, it was the earliest released version, so I had zombies following me into that water. They would actually explode from damage after "drowning" for awhile. I remember how gross I thought that would be, to be in that water with exploding undead flesh, making a soup I had to swim around in. :p
I had one of the Cragscleft Mine Hammerites chase me into one of the pools outside, and though he ran slowly on the bottom of the pool, chasing me through the connecting tunnel to the next pool, he took damage, of course, and drowned. The next time I played TDP off a new disc, I tried to relive the moment and found the AIs had had that mindless behavior tweaked out of them.
Twist on 23/3/2013 at 23:34
In TDP, zombies were always just an environmental hazard to me. Not only could you sneak by them, but they were really easy to run around and outrun, and they forgot about you pretty soon after you outran them. Every once in a while they made my heart beat a little faster because I had to be precise to slip by them without letting one reach out and hurt me.
I never bothered fighting them in the Bonehoard or the Haunted Cathedral because it just seemed unnecessary... like stopping to pick a fight with a pool of lava.
I liked them -- even though I've never been terribly fond of zombie games -- because as an environmental hazard they added an extra dimension of horror and threat while I explored and pondered the puzzles. And their sounds -- both their footsteps and their moans -- complemented the atmosphere and overall sound design.
I'll miss them if they're not in the NewThief. I think a truly authentic and dark Thief should have them. But I don't think it'd be the end of the world if they didn't make the cut.
