Thief, rebooted. - by SubJeff
Starker on 9/9/2018 at 04:39
For an action game, a frictionless interface and streamlined mechanics are incredibly important. But in game that's not purely action, I think there is a bit more leeway to frustrate the player. For example, using the bow in Thief takes just a bit of effort -- it takes some time to draw the bow back fully and the projectiles arc, so there's some mastery involved in using it.
ZylonBane on 9/9/2018 at 21:58
That's part of the simulation though, not the interface being difficult just to be difficult.
I suspect the real reason most developers include gesture systems is to simplify the interface, and to enhance the illusion of being your character by "actually" casting your magic spells. Ironically they tend to fail on both counts. Simplifying the interface by not having a spell menu just pushes that complexity onto the player, and while I'm sure my character would have no trouble remembering a dozen runes and what they do because he's studied magic for years of his life, I'm just some guy who's playing the game and fuck if I can be bothered to remember all these symbols, especially if the game doesn't even recognize them correctly half the time.
Starker on 10/9/2018 at 00:30
A gesture-based spellcasting system is sort of a simulation too.
I think there's plenty of room between Arx Fatalis's "I have to memorise all this crap and why doesn't it work and oh I'm dead" gesture system and "press left mouse click to throw fireballs". Simple, memorable shapes and pausing the game while drawing is how Okami does its gesture-based abilities, for example.
Sulphur on 10/9/2018 at 05:34
You could take a page out of Ultima VIII and have the spells themselves conjured up through arcane rituals but 'charged' into a receptacle like a scroll or talisman that would be instant use. It'd be an interesting dynamic if it weren't as tortuous/irritating as UVIII's.
SubJeff on 10/9/2018 at 16:13
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
I'm just some guy who's playing the game and fuck if I can be bothered to remember all these symbols, especially if the game doesn't even recognize them correctly half the time.
Now this is an interesting point.
Where is the line between a "win" button and an in-game skill. I think the entirety of fun in a game comes down to this.
In Mortal Combat 9 (I think it is 9) those X-Ray moves are done with a button press. But to do the massive combos you have to have great knowledge and skill with a character. The X-Ray moves are almost win buttons, though you have to charge them by getting enough hits.
I think this division is what separates people who will love a game from those who will not. Thief's bow was great, to me, be cause there is no crosshair and there is an arc. It was similar in Red Orchestra - even using iron sights needed skill because the bullets arc and they also take time to travel; if you're sniping you'd have to lead the target AND account for bullet drop.
I'm tempted to say if more devs thought about this stuff we'd get better games, but that doesn't account of taste; some people love those win buttons. I remember a guy at uni who would play Doom in God Mode for hours. I never got the appeal.
samIamsad on 13/9/2018 at 04:25
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
Jesus christ, after we're done arguing what an RPG is again can we have the what is an immersive sim discussion too.
It (
http://web.archive.org/web/19980224020118/www.lglass.com/p_info/dark/manifesto.html) seems there's still guys who have learned little in all those years (and playing these fantastic games), I see. :D
About a Thief reboot, who should be doing it anyways? Interestingly, the most Thief-y game I'ver personally played in the past couple years was Alien:Isolation -- which also was the most Shock like game in ages too, that is until Prey came around. That's not a dig at Dishonored or something (great stuff), however -- a core aspect of Thief is that your character is actually a real person, somebody who's deadly vulnerable. Super powered ninja stealth assassins able to mow down foes within the blink of the Outsider's eye just don't completely fit that bill. I have the suspicious that if LG had to ever tackle the Alien license, the end result would have been something similar in many -- if not quite all -- aspects. (
https://www.salon.com/1999/02/10/review_123/) No doubt they'd have gone for official Oculus Rift support too at this stage of tech development, or maybe developed their very own.
samIamsad on 13/9/2018 at 04:38
Quote Posted by samIamsad
IThat's not a dig at Dishonored or something (great stuff), however -- a core aspect of Thief is that your character is actually a real person, somebody who's deadly vulnerable. Super powered ninja stealth assassins able to mow down foes within the blink of the Outsider's eye just don't completely fit that bill.
For the record, this applies even without any of the supernatural powers. Corvo's/Emiliy's abilities are beyond merely human, with or without the touch of the Outsider.
Jason Moyer on 17/9/2018 at 14:47
Dishonored is more like Deus Ex than Thief other than the setting. <--- seriously considering setting this up as a macro
I want Arkane to do a gritty grounded-in-reality near-future proper cyberpunk game that plays like Thief and explores similar themes.
Thirith on 17/9/2018 at 14:57
Quote Posted by Jason Moyer
Dishonored is more like Deus Ex than Thief other than the setting. <--- seriously considering setting this up as a macro
Or the level design. Or the social RPG aspects. Or the way the game plays, if you play more stealthily and non-lethally.
Jason Moyer on 18/9/2018 at 09:50
I wouldn't say it's 1:1, but the stealth system in particular is straight Deus Ex (elevation, line of sight, distance), the non-lethal options in the first game are knocking people out from behind or using tranq darts, and you have a suite of augmented powers that either act passively or drain from a magical energy pool. And while there aren't as many in-mission roleplaying opportunities in DH as DX, Thief had exactly 0.
